Bad day?

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Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:45 pm

Well I don't know if I practice marking and steadying to much but I cut down on it. I usually practice it every other day now. Ill train him on whatever were working on that day then Ill mark and steady.

Well today I had someone kind of far out in a field like we've done before. I have them throw it and I say mark then he watches it and sees where it lands. Then he will look around and pretty much forget all about it. So when I call his name to go get it, he runs out there like he has no idea where it is or he won't go at all because either he doesn't know it's there anymore or he thinks I'm getting on to him when I say his name. After he did it again I got down to his eye level and noticed that you can't even see the bumper. I don't know if that's what happened every time but I figured when I say mark and he watches it through the air land, even if he doesn't see it anymore he should still know where to go and go no matter when I call his name instead if thinking I'm getting on to him. I was confused and he got bored today and didn't wanna pick up the bumper one time because I kept throwing bumpers wondering what's wrong.

Any tips or help? Thanks lol sorry for the long post
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Re: Bad day?

Postby loner » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:00 pm

most people stop retreiving work during FF
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:03 pm

Throw SINGLES for young dogs on short grass with a visible (white coat) thrower. Big white bumpers.

It takes time to build marking confidence and concepts. It sounds like you're making the mistake of pushing the cover issue too hard, added with a mistake of not evaluating your set and getting down on the dogs level to determine visibility.

Also, if this dog is doing multiples, sounds like the dog is head swinging. Again, lots of singles in relatively short grass.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:06 pm

He's only doing singles. Should I keep it short (as far as I can throw it) or add distance every now and then (have someone stand out there and throw it)?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:07 pm

loner wrote:most people stop retreiving work during FF


I fail to see what FF has to do with this. It's a marking confidence issue.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:08 pm

I didn't know that. So should unstop retrieving work during FF then? If I do should I throw like two fun bumpers after everyday that he does good during FF or just train and be done?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:14 pm

Morphsuit wrote:He's only doing singles. Should I keep it short (as far as I can throw it) or add distance every now and then (have someone stand out there and throw it)?


With our very young Derby dogs, we typically throw lots of singles with big white bumpers on very short grass. It builds marking confidence.
Gradually, we stretch them out on that short grass. By the time they get to advancing to more difficult cover and factors, they think they can mark anything.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:17 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:He's only doing singles. Should I keep it short (as far as I can throw it) or add distance every now and then (have someone stand out there and throw it)?


With our very young Derby dogs, we typically throw lots of singles with big white bumpers on very short grass. It builds marking confidence.
Gradually, we stretch them out on that short grass. By the time they get to advancing to more difficult cover and factors, they think they can mark anything.


He's about 10 months old. Ok that sounds good. How long is gradually? Like every other week increase the distance?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:22 pm

Morph-
7 days ago you "started" (?) Collar Conditioning.
WHERE are you at with this? Almost done?
How'd it go?

Respectfully-
It seems you could be overly consumed with marking, and retrieving in general vs. nailing down some important fundamentals.
You MUST remember something-
Your voice, the inflection of it, or the tone of it goes a looong way. Be careful when you use it. I would bet my next paycheck that if I had the charts and graphs to prove it you'd find that just as many dawgs have been shut down as a result of a trainers' voice as has been as the result of mis-use of an E-collar.

Are you Collar Conditioning the dog or are you FF'ing it? Which one is it?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Duckdon » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:28 pm

Morphsuit wrote:I didn't know that. So should unstop retrieving work during FF then? If I do should I throw like two fun bumpers after everyday that he does good during FF or just train and be done?


I don't throw fun bumpers during FF. I don't do any bumper work at all during FF with most dogs. I might.......might....do a fun bumper if...if...if the dog is realy solid on retrieves but if not your trying to clean up his retrieve so I would not let him have the chance to do it wrong.

I do lots of fun walks, some basic OB but not retrieves.
Just my opinion. I am not a pro and the advice is free.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:Morph-
7 days ago you "started" (?) Collar Conditioning.
WHERE are you at with this? Almost done?
How'd it go?

Respectfully-
It seems you could be overly consumed with marking, and retrieving in general vs. nailing down some important fundamentals.
You MUST remember something-
Your voice, the inflection of it, or the tone of it goes a looong way. Be careful when you use it. I would bet my next paycheck that if I had the charts and graphs to prove it you'd find that just as many dawgs have been shut down as a result of a trainers' voice as has been as the result of mis-use of an E-collar.

Are you Collar Conditioning the dog or are you FF'ing it? Which one is it?


Yah lol I'm just a little confused on when I should be doing it because I don't want to over do it or under do it.

I've completed 8 days of his CC. It went great. He did amazing. On his last day I didn't even have to shock him no matter what I did he stayed by my side when heeling.

Well I try to use the same voice every time but when he doesn't do something right he thinks I'm getting on to him. If he goes for the wrong bumper when he has the e-collar on do I give him a bump and say no or just praise him anyways?

I'm on FF as of today.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:34 pm

Well, as loner said, I generally suspend marking during FF. more because you can't enforce good mouth habits until it's completed, although that's a side benefit of the FF process.

However, this sounds to me more of a marking confidence issue. Based on what you've described, I would suspend FF and re-establish marking confidence as I've described with a visible gun on short grass with big white bumpers.

To me, a dog that gives no-goes on simple singles (even in cover) has bigger problems than worrying about FF at this point.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:34 pm

Duckdon wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:I didn't know that. So should unstop retrieving work during FF then? If I do should I throw like two fun bumpers after everyday that he does good during FF or just train and be done?


I don't throw fun bumpers during FF. I don't do any bumper work at all during FF with most dogs. I might.......might....do a fun bumper if...if...if the dog is realy solid on retrieves but if not your trying to clean up his retrieve so I would not let him have the chance to do it wrong.

I do lots of fun walks, some basic OB but not retrieves.
Just my opinion. I am not a pro and the advice is free.
Don


Do you do any retrieving work during FF, or is it just strictly FF until done with that?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:37 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:Well, as loner said, I generally suspend marking during FF. more because you can't enforce good mouth habits until it's completed, although that's a side benefit of the FF process.

However, this sounds to me more of a marking confidence issue. Based on what you've described, I would suspend FF and re-establish marking confidence as I've described with a visible gun on short grass with big white bumpers.

To me, a dog that gives no-goes on simple singles (even in cover) has bigger problems than worrying about FF at this point.


That's what I'm saying. I have big white bumpers. So I'm gonna go ahead and suspend FF.

How should I go about this for how long a day? Just start out with normal single marks and then gradually increase the stance everyday until he's got it down?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:41 pm

He never usually does this that's what's weird. The way he watches it in the air then just started looking around and at other things then when I say his name he's like huh, oh I wasn't paying attention lol maybe because he couldn't see it.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:49 pm

Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:Morph-
7 days ago you "started" (?) Collar Conditioning.
WHERE are you at with this? Almost done?
How'd it go?

Respectfully-
It seems you could be overly consumed with marking, and retrieving in general vs. nailing down some important fundamentals.
You MUST remember something-
Your voice, the inflection of it, or the tone of it goes a looong way. Be careful when you use it. I would bet my next paycheck that if I had the charts and graphs to prove it you'd find that just as many dawgs have been shut down as a result of a trainers' voice as has been as the result of mis-use of an E-collar.

Are you Collar Conditioning the dog or are you FF'ing it? Which one is it?


Yah lol I'm just a little confused on when I should be doing it because I don't want to over do it or under do it.

I've completed 8 days of his CC. It went great. He did amazing. On his last day I didn't even have to shock him no matter what I did he stayed by my side when heeling.

Well I try to use the same voice every time but when he doesn't do something right he thinks I'm getting on to him. If he goes for the wrong bumper when he has the e-collar on do I give him a bump and say no or just praise him anyways?

HELL NO!!- To BOTH questions! :eek:
Morph- respectfully- You aren't going about this right at all. I mean no harm, just trying to help you!
DON'T use the Collar on your pup like this, it's insane.
You don't have the fundamentals in place for ANY of this. Stop! Get some Collar Training material, and read it. Put the collar away.
You're using the collar on marks,(?) marks the pup may or may not have actually marked to begin with, who knows what kind of cover you're tossing those marks in, you're confusing your dog not only with pressure if you do this, but also with multiple marks the pups' NOT trained yet to understand-STOP what you're doing.
You don't want to start NO-ing your pup off of marks, you're going to screw up any drive or eagerness pup has to retrieve if you keep doing that or if you do! Particularly when pups' CONFUSED to begin with.

Respectfully-
Swamp
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:58 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:Morph-
7 days ago you "started" (?) Collar Conditioning.
WHERE are you at with this? Almost done?
How'd it go?

Respectfully-
It seems you could be overly consumed with marking, and retrieving in general vs. nailing down some important fundamentals.
You MUST remember something-
Your voice, the inflection of it, or the tone of it goes a looong way. Be careful when you use it. I would bet my next paycheck that if I had the charts and graphs to prove it you'd find that just as many dawgs have been shut down as a result of a trainers' voice as has been as the result of mis-use of an E-collar.

Are you Collar Conditioning the dog or are you FF'ing it? Which one is it?


Yah lol I'm just a little confused on when I should be doing it because I don't want to over do it or under do it.

I've completed 8 days of his CC. It went great. He did amazing. On his last day I didn't even have to shock him no matter what I did he stayed by my side when heeling.

Well I try to use the same voice every time but when he doesn't do something right he thinks I'm getting on to him. If he goes for the wrong bumper when he has the e-collar on do I give him a bump and say no or just praise him anyways?

HELL NO!!- To BOTH questions! :eek:
Morph- respectfully- You aren't going about this right at all. I mean no harm, just trying to help you!
DON'T use the Collar on your pup like this, it's insane.
You don't have the fundamentals in place for ANY of this. Stop! Get some Collar Training material, and read it. Put the collar away.
You're using the collar on marks,(?) marks the pup may or may not have actually marked to begin with, who knows what kind of cover you're tossing those marks in, you're confusing your dog not only with pressure if you do this, but also with multiple marks the pups' NOT trained yet to understand-STOP what you're doing.
You don't want to start NO-ing your pup off of marks, you're going to screw up any drive or eagerness pup has to retrieve if you keep doing that or if you do! Particularly when pups' CONFUSED to begin with.

Respectfully-
Swamp
:beer:


Thats what I thought! I didn't use the collar on him for that and I've never have for marking at all. I just have it on him when we train and retrieve because I was told to is that wrong? Well then how should I go about it? Suspend FF and work on marking?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:04 pm

Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:Morph-
7 days ago you "started" (?) Collar Conditioning.
WHERE are you at with this? Almost done?
How'd it go?

Respectfully-
It seems you could be overly consumed with marking, and retrieving in general vs. nailing down some important fundamentals.
You MUST remember something-
Your voice, the inflection of it, or the tone of it goes a looong way. Be careful when you use it. I would bet my next paycheck that if I had the charts and graphs to prove it you'd find that just as many dawgs have been shut down as a result of a trainers' voice as has been as the result of mis-use of an E-collar.

Are you Collar Conditioning the dog or are you FF'ing it? Which one is it?


Yah lol I'm just a little confused on when I should be doing it because I don't want to over do it or under do it.

I've completed 8 days of his CC. It went great. He did amazing. On his last day I didn't even have to shock him no matter what I did he stayed by my side when heeling.

Well I try to use the same voice every time but when he doesn't do something right he thinks I'm getting on to him. If he goes for the wrong bumper when he has the e-collar on do I give him a bump and say no or just praise him anyways?

HELL NO!!- To BOTH questions! :eek:
Morph- respectfully- You aren't going about this right at all. I mean no harm, just trying to help you!
DON'T use the Collar on your pup like this, it's insane.
You don't have the fundamentals in place for ANY of this. Stop! Get some Collar Training material, and read it. Put the collar away.
You're using the collar on marks,(?) marks the pup may or may not have actually marked to begin with, who knows what kind of cover you're tossing those marks in, you're confusing your dog not only with pressure if you do this, but also with multiple marks the pups' NOT trained yet to understand-STOP what you're doing.
You don't want to start NO-ing your pup off of marks, you're going to screw up any drive or eagerness pup has to retrieve if you keep doing that or if you do! Particularly when pups' CONFUSED to begin with.

Respectfully-
Swamp
:beer:


Thats what I thought! I didn't use the collar on him for that and I've never have for marking at all. I just have it on him when we train and retrieve because I was told to is that wrong? Well then how should I go about it? Suspend FF and work on marking?

There's nothing in the world wrong with having the collar on the pup to re-enforce known commands, but you want to avoid making a ton of corrections at the line.
N0- you don't suspend FF' and work specifically on marking-(THERE ya' go again with the retrieving stuff :lol3:)
Get some training material, you're putting the cart before the horse.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:08 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:Morph-
7 days ago you "started" (?) Collar Conditioning.
WHERE are you at with this? Almost done?
How'd it go?

Respectfully-
It seems you could be overly consumed with marking, and retrieving in general vs. nailing down some important fundamentals.
You MUST remember something-
Your voice, the inflection of it, or the tone of it goes a looong way. Be careful when you use it. I would bet my next paycheck that if I had the charts and graphs to prove it you'd find that just as many dawgs have been shut down as a result of a trainers' voice as has been as the result of mis-use of an E-collar.

Are you Collar Conditioning the dog or are you FF'ing it? Which one is it?


Yah lol I'm just a little confused on when I should be doing it because I don't want to over do it or under do it.

I've completed 8 days of his CC. It went great. He did amazing. On his last day I didn't even have to shock him no matter what I did he stayed by my side when heeling.

Well I try to use the same voice every time but when he doesn't do something right he thinks I'm getting on to him. If he goes for the wrong bumper when he has the e-collar on do I give him a bump and say no or just praise him anyways?

HELL NO!!- To BOTH questions! :eek:
Morph- respectfully- You aren't going about this right at all. I mean no harm, just trying to help you!
DON'T use the Collar on your pup like this, it's insane.
You don't have the fundamentals in place for ANY of this. Stop! Get some Collar Training material, and read it. Put the collar away.
You're using the collar on marks,(?) marks the pup may or may not have actually marked to begin with, who knows what kind of cover you're tossing those marks in, you're confusing your dog not only with pressure if you do this, but also with multiple marks the pups' NOT trained yet to understand-STOP what you're doing.
You don't want to start NO-ing your pup off of marks, you're going to screw up any drive or eagerness pup has to retrieve if you keep doing that or if you do! Particularly when pups' CONFUSED to begin with.

Respectfully-
Swamp
:beer:


Thats what I thought! I didn't use the collar on him for that and I've never have for marking at all. I just have it on him when we train and retrieve because I was told to is that wrong? Well then how should I go about it? Suspend FF and work on marking?

There's nothing in the world wrong with having the collar on the pup to re-enforce known commands, but you want to avoid making a ton of corrections at the line.
N0- you don't suspend FF' and work specifically on marking-(THERE ya' go again with the retrieving stuff :lol3:)
Get some training material, you're putting the cart before the horse.


Ok then I'll stick with FF lol but I just don't know when I'm supposed to practice marking. I have this DVD and he doesn't do it until after he's done with FF. Ok I understand on the reinforcing known commands thing. I'm just confused O_o
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:14 pm

Okay...I have to ask the age old question of what training program you're using? I'm a Lardy fan, but if you are using SmartWork, it's basically the same Carr based system. It seems you're all over the map.

8 days seems like an awfully quick CC process. I generally approach that portion of training by marking drills in the morning and CC yard drills in the evening.

IMO, most novice trainers tend to look at things in a cut and dry manner...when in fact, a drill is designed to establish a standard and it's up to you to maintain that standard.

Don't make the dog's life a chamber of horrors...when I come out of a heavy corrective stage of training such as CC or FF, I typically let them have a break with confidence type marks. Just let'em roll with marks they almost can't mess up. Call it an attitude adjustment.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:19 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:Okay...I have to ask the age old question of what training program you're using? I'm a Lardy fan, but if you are using SmartWork, it's basically the same Carr based system. It seems you're all over the map.

8 days seems like an awfully quick CC process. I generally approach that portion of training by marking drills in the morning and CC yard drills in the evening.

IMO, most novice trainers tend to look at things in a cut and dry manner...when in fact, a drill is designed to establish a standard and it's up to you to maintain that standard.

Don't make the dog's life a chamber of horrors...when I come out of a heavy corrective stage of training such as CC or FF, I typically let them have a break with confidence type marks. Just let'em roll with marks they almost can't mess up. Call it an attitude adjustment.


Duck Dog Basics Chris Akin.

I saw it took 7 to 10 says to complete CC and by day 7 he was doing absolutely great so I did one extra day.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:20 pm

[quote]N0- you don't suspend FF' and work specifically on marking-(THERE ya' go again with the retrieving stuff [quote]

Disagree. I think a round of therapy marks would really benefit a dog like this. Approach more stressful portions of training later.

Why on earth you would want to keep adding stress to a young dog that's no-going without a foundation is beyond me.

I'm no stranger to pushing dogs, but this doesn't sound right.

But, hey...I don't know anything. :smile:
Last edited by CatSquirrel on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby dogyak » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:30 pm

I think you need to stop everything right now for now and let this pup forget what happen . You zap him when he was going for a mark . It sounds like you are doing more than singles when you said he went to the wrong bumper . You have really cause more harm than good at this point . You need to get in a club or find someone to help you brother before moving forward . Please , and I mean please don't try to FF this dog on your own . If you have a program , you are missing a lot of steps . This is the best thing I can say to you here . " Your dog's success depends as much on you as it does on him . A good hunting dog is bred to do many things naturally . YOU , on the other hand , are not genetically predisposed to train a dog at this point . Get some help .
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:10 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:
N0- you don't suspend FF' and work specifically on marking-(THERE ya' go again with the retrieving stuff

Disagree. I think a round of therapy marks would really benefit a dog like this. Approach more stressful portions of training later.

Why on earth you would want to keep adding stress to a young dog that's no-going without a foundation is beyond me.

I'm no stranger to pushing dogs, but this doesn't sound right.

But, hey...I don't know anything. :smile:

I guess that's directed to me 'Cat not sure.
But if it is-
"Therapy marks" should be just what they're intended to be- "Therapy Marks",..better known as--->"fun bumpers"

And WITHOUT all the No-ing, and confusion!
We agree.
What I'm saying is you don't pinch an ear one day,.. CC' a little bit another,.. and then work on marking..err, I mean multiple marks the next day, (that the dog has absolutely NO concept of), all while NO-ing the dog off of marks because it's confused.
THAT'S why on earth I'd want to BUILD a foundation first, and retrieve for fun..before adding the stress of having retrieving expectations before that foundation is in place .

Now if he wants to, Morph can spend ALL day out there in the training field working on "marking" if that's the focus.
But that ain't going to get his dog FF'd :wink:
Again-
Seems we agree!
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Tanner01 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:44 am

I am a novice trainer with a gsp and a griffon so consider my free advice. I go to a professional trainer for help because they will see what the problem is in minutes, where internet posts may never really identity the issue. With my wpg she would do the same and the trainer called it "a form of bugging". Like the members who seem to know a lot more than me have said- Solid foundation is needed, might be jumping around to much, and FF is a lot of pressure on a dog.
Only things I do know for certain is get a professional to help when stuck and you have to nurture the retrieve. Sounds like you are about to shut down the dog to retrieving.
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