Bad day?

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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:45 am

I guess it was a bad day as I thought. We did some easy marks this morning and he did great no problem and one of them was where he couldn't see it and he still ran for it and got it.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:39 am

Tanner01 wrote:I am a novice trainer with a gsp and a griffon so consider my free advice. I go to a professional trainer for help because they will see what the problem is in minutes, where internet posts may never really identity the issue. With my wpg she would do the same and the trainer called it "a form of bugging". Like the members who seem to know a lot more than me have said- Solid foundation is needed, might be jumping around to much, and FF is a lot of pressure on a dog.
Only things I do know for certain is get a professional to help when stuck and you have to nurture the retrieve. Sounds like you are about to shut down the dog to retrieving.


What do you mean by a solid foundation?
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Re: Bad day?

Postby krazybronco2 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:39 pm

one other thing that might help with the marking confidence is try training in different places but make sure that the places you go are nice and clean cut and not to many long marks 50-60 yards at the most, also if you are using a thrower have them yell hey hey hey or blow a duck call to get the pups attention and then throw immediatly after they stop and have the thrower throw the bumper as high and as far away from them as they can. also by changing places and changing the direction you throw marks will make the marks not as boring and most likely the pup will be more eager to chase instead of seeing the same old thing every day.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:45 pm

Morphsuit wrote:I guess it was a bad day as I thought. We did some easy marks this morning and he did great no problem and one of them was where he couldn't see it and he still ran for it and got it.

Oh good! So problem solved! :wink:
Bye.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:41 pm

krazybronco2 wrote:one other thing that might help with the marking confidence is try training in different places but make sure that the places you go are nice and clean cut and not to many long marks 50-60 yards at the most, also if you are using a thrower have them yell hey hey hey or blow a duck call to get the pups attention and then throw immediatly after they stop and have the thrower throw the bumper as high and as far away from them as they can. also by changing places and changing the direction you throw marks will make the marks not as boring and most likely the pup will be more eager to chase instead of seeing the same old thing every day.


Finally! Thank you so much lol someone finally gave me advice and some tips on what to do instead of saying stop.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:53 pm

Morphsuit wrote:
krazybronco2 wrote:one other thing that might help with the marking confidence is try training in different places but make sure that the places you go are nice and clean cut and not to many long marks 50-60 yards at the most, also if you are using a thrower have them yell hey hey hey or blow a duck call to get the pups attention and then throw immediatly after they stop and have the thrower throw the bumper as high and as far away from them as they can. also by changing places and changing the direction you throw marks will make the marks not as boring and most likely the pup will be more eager to chase instead of seeing the same old thing every day.


Finally! Thank you so much lol someone finally gave me advice and some tips on what to do instead of saying stop.

YEP!
Yaay.
So now when you're "practicing marking" while using collar pressure on marks, No-ing the pup off of multiple marks, and hollering at your pup, you'll know the worst advice you've received was to stop!
Keep going!
Sounds like you're on track :thumbsup:
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:01 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
krazybronco2 wrote:one other thing that might help with the marking confidence is try training in different places but make sure that the places you go are nice and clean cut and not to many long marks 50-60 yards at the most, also if you are using a thrower have them yell hey hey hey or blow a duck call to get the pups attention and then throw immediatly after they stop and have the thrower throw the bumper as high and as far away from them as they can. also by changing places and changing the direction you throw marks will make the marks not as boring and most likely the pup will be more eager to chase instead of seeing the same old thing every day.


Finally! Thank you so much lol someone finally gave me advice and some tips on what to do instead of saying stop.

YEP!
Yaay.
So now when you're "practicing marking" while using collar pressure on marks, No-ing the pup off of multiple marks, and hollering at your pup, you'll know the worst advice you've received was to stop!
Keep going!
Sounds like you're on track :thumbsup:


I never did any of that I kept the collar on him but didn't use it as I was told to so that. It just feels good to be told what to do and what to try then be told to quit trying to train and have someone else do it.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:27 pm

Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
krazybronco2 wrote:one other thing that might help with the marking confidence is try training in different places but make sure that the places you go are nice and clean cut and not to many long marks 50-60 yards at the most, also if you are using a thrower have them yell hey hey hey or blow a duck call to get the pups attention and then throw immediatly after they stop and have the thrower throw the bumper as high and as far away from them as they can. also by changing places and changing the direction you throw marks will make the marks not as boring and most likely the pup will be more eager to chase instead of seeing the same old thing every day.


Finally! Thank you so much lol someone finally gave me advice and some tips on what to do instead of saying stop.

YEP!
Yaay.
So now when you're "practicing marking" while using collar pressure on marks, No-ing the pup off of multiple marks, and hollering at your pup, you'll know the worst advice you've received was to stop!
Keep going!
Sounds like you're on track :thumbsup:


I never did any of that I kept the collar on him but didn't use it as I was told to so that. It just feels good to be told what to do and what to try then be told to quit trying to train and have someone else do it.

Morph-
Didn't tell you to quit trying to train, and didn't tell ya' to find someone else to do it.
However that might not be a bad idea if you had the cash. Moneys' tight these days for a lot of us.

Did tell ya' to stop what you're doing.
Here's why-

Morphsuit wrote: So when I call his name to go get it, he runs out there like he has no idea where it is or he won't go at all because either he doesn't know it's there anymore or he thinks I'm getting on to him when I say his name.

The fact that calling out pups' name and it changes it's behavior in the manner as you've pointed out suggests one or two things-
Pup becomes skittish for some odd reason when you speak to it.
Major confusion.

Morphsuit wrote:Well I try to use the same voice every time but when he doesn't do something right he thinks I'm getting on to him. If he goes for the wrong bumper when he has the e-collar on do I give him a bump and say no or just praise him anyways?
I'm on FF as of today.

Bothers me you'd have to ask whether or not to use collar pressure or No! pup off of marks with a CONFUSED 10 mo.old..
Just keepin' it real-
Sends up some red flags.

You've got some training material right?- Fowldawgs (?)
WHAT does Stawski recommend you do??!!

As far as "marking" and the concepts of- the time will come when you teach them.
As far as keeping the dog retrieving while FF', well, some people don't do marks, and some people do. Success both ways from what I've seen.
Good luck.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:47 pm

Morphsuit wrote:I never did any of that I kept the collar on him but didn't use it as I was told to so that.

No-ones' going to bust your chops if you have. It's a mistake by doing it if ya' have.

But if you really want to give yourself and your pup a fair shake, you need to be forthcoming about it so that folks can give you a decent constructive Rx for what you're situation is.
Folks screw up.
No big deal.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:16 pm

"Therapy marks" should be just what they're intended to be- "Therapy Marks",..better known as--->"fun bumpers"


Swampy.....Therapy marks are NOT fun bumpers. They're simply marks thrown from a remote gun that the dog almost can't fail.
Fun bumpers are side thrown bumpers that are an attitude adjustment.
At least that's how we define them.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:26 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:I never did any of that I kept the collar on him but didn't use it as I was told to so that.

No-ones' going to bust your chops if you have. It's a mistake by doing it if ya' have.

But if you really want to give yourself and your pup a fair shake, you need to be forthcoming about it so that folks can give you a decent constructive Rx for what you're situation is.
Folks screw up.
No big deal.


I know and I appreciate all the help and everything. I'm just confused. I messed up that day. I'm just going to continue FF and stop the bumpers for a couple of days so he doesn't lose his drive or interest I hope!
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Re: Bad day?

Postby CatSquirrel » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Morphsuit wrote:
swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:I never did any of that I kept the collar on him but didn't use it as I was told to so that.

No-ones' going to bust your chops if you have. It's a mistake by doing it if ya' have.

But if you really want to give yourself and your pup a fair shake, you need to be forthcoming about it so that folks can give you a decent constructive Rx for what you're situation is.
Folks screw up.
No big deal.


I know and I appreciate all the help and everything. I'm just confused. I messed up that day. I'm just going to continue FF and stop the bumpers for a couple of days so he doesn't lose his drive or interest I hope!


I do not agree with diving right into FF right after CC.

The reason I say this is you've just come out of a stressful portion of training. Give the dog a couple weeks of therapy marks and let the dog relax.
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Re: Bad day?

Postby Tanner01 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:01 pm

Solid foundation,same as fundamental skills. Eight days really is not truly collar conditioned and almost done with FF is not a solid foundation. If you teach tough stressful skills you have to consider the amount of pressure that you are putting on the dog. Some dogs deal with it better than others. Some collar conditioning start to teach dogs how to turn off the collar by using the kennel command.
Mark drills under full control with corrections on top of FF and collar conditioning can be tough on any dog.
If you slow down and get FF completed and work the collar conditioning into FF you have a better foundation to build on. My GSP will take pressure all day and still ask for more, my WPG can't take more than light pressure no other tasks until one is completed. GSP can forgive my mistake in about 45 seconds my WPG in about 4 to 5 hours.
Dogs will sometimes bug when feeling pressured (stress). I assume you have a good heel and sit for the marks, so why not keep the rest of the drill low pressure and fun especially on singles. I don't use the collar for heeling as a general rule, usually the heeling stick and short collar lead. Found on the WPG that to much collar shut her down and needed to choose the right tool to encourage the correct response. I was taught that marks should be fun for the dog and if she bugs than you are doing something wrong. Back up and make it easier and simpler on you and the dog. Perhaps work on steady separately before combining it into marks with corrections.
If she refuses to run a mark and you have taught the dog back, such as in the t drill and you have completed and solidified force fetch you can then enforce the commands. But you would never teach all of those skills all at once, you teach each separately until well established and then combined together. Remember you want the hunting dog for the next 15 years, so why rush, and one bad day can be just that, one bad day. Good luck
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Re: Bad day?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:15 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:
"Therapy marks" should be just what they're intended to be- "Therapy Marks",..better known as--->"fun bumpers"


Swampy.....Therapy marks are NOT fun bumpers. They're simply marks thrown from a remote gun that the dog almost can't fail.
Fun bumpers are side thrown bumpers that are an attitude adjustment.
At least that's how we define them.

I understand 'Cat.
Coming from your side, from a winger, or remote gunner- idea should be no pressure period.

Doubt the dog would get stressed not knowing the nomenclature.
:beer:
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