Force to Pile

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Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:46 am

So I am finally getting somewhere and am transitioning to force to pile. Just wanted to clarify this upfront before I begin.

In force to pile I have seen multiple "methods" for it, but I wanted to make sure the method I am looking at sounds correct. Since I used continuous stimulation during FF, I plan on putting out the bumpers, commanding fetch and using continuous low level stimulation until he grabs the bumper. Once we have done that for a bit and he clearly understands, then we will transition to a nick only when he needs corrrection.

Reason I ask this is I have seen people say the do it by fetch, nick, fetch then the dog goes. That seems counter intuitive to me because if my dog goes on the first fetch, the nick seems oddly placed like i'm correcting him for going. Also, I think the continuous would make him realize he should run a straighter line to the pile. Sound logical?
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby sharris » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:27 am

The fowl dawgs CD's use a lot of sandwiching a nick between commands (fetch, here, heel, sit) as part of the collar conditioning process which follows FF. The dogs pick up on it pretty quickly. If you are worried about your dog getting confused take a step back from force to pile and use a nick instead of continuous in your FF. Once you feel your dog understands the nick means the same thing as continuous and gets the same response then move to force to pile. You could alternatively use continuous in FTP and then once he gets it use a nick instead. It probably will only take a day to transition (once my dog understood what pressure was it didn't matter if it was an ear pinch, collar, or heeling stick to get the same response). I'm not a FF expert so I'm sure others will chime in and share their opinons.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:37 am

Yea we did transition to just a nick after the continuous stim, and my dog doesnt have an issue understanding pressure, I just want to know why fetch/nick/fetch instead of continuous until the get the bumper? Seems like continuous would help make them run a line better than a nick in the beginning.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:47 am

Actually my question was answered in the force fetch sticky where hunt-chessies said

"PILE DRILLS

Then I usually go to Pile Drills from here. Pile 6 bumpers up and back up what ever the distance is that you have him Fetching on the leash. Now we can take off the leash and command FETCH to the pile. HERE, HEEL, SIT, DROP. And you are ready to go for the second bumper in the pile. When starting it should be the low level burn all the way to the pile. We will quit this as the pile gets farther away. According to the amount of pressure you are using on the dogs will dictate the number of reps. I usually like to get 6 bumpers, then turn around and get the 6 that you just threw (dropped) over your shoulder. After a couple days of this, run the first 3 at 15', then while he is going for the 3rd one, back up about 3-4 steps, and try to send him on the 4th one from there. If he goes, stay here for the rest of that session, if he balks or No-Go's, then move back up and work some more at the shorter distance. Each day try to back up 3-5 steps. Once you get far enough that you start receiving No-Go's then it is time to slow down, and get more reps (Days) at the same distance. Any time that the dog gets confused, move up and simplify, and back up again. Also once I get to about 10 YARDS I drop the "Continuous" burn, and just NICK him, to kick him off."


Thats the way i plan on doing it
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:20 am

You got some good answers on the other forum you are posting on.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:30 am

agreed. thanks for the help.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:04 pm

So we worked on throwing about 25 yard marks using fetch/nick/fetch at first for two sessions, then this morning and this afternoon did two short sessions. Each had about 5 marks at 25 yards then two short force to pile sessions at about 8 yards with 4 bumpers in the pile. Not seen any big issues yet.

On the 25 yard marks I had probably 2 that he ran most of the way and just turned back towards me like he either didn't understand or didn't see the bumper after it landed so he turned back to me. Any tips?
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Tanner01 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm

Sometimes they won't run straight because they associate the nick or burn with the track they are running, trying to avoid the shock. To many shocks will do this, as well as to much distance to soon. Move closer and evaluate the amount of pressure being but on the dog.
Force to pile as I understand it is to condition the dog to run straight back. The collar nick is to create a compulsion to run before the nick occurs. Back nick back or in your case fetch nick fetch is teaching the dog to run back and by stopping the nick while the dog is running teaches the dog how to turn of the pressure. I would not use continuous. This needs to be balanced out with freebies so as to be fair to the dog, which will help keep the dogs attitude up. It also will teach the dog that if he runs fast enough he might and can avoid the nick all together.
I found more pressure is not always the answer. If he is looking back he is probably concerned and worried or just bugging out on you.
Set the pile out with a white bucket in the beginning to clearly identify where it is, not a marking drill, force to pile is about running straight back. Force work can be tough on a dog I would not mix that that with marking drills especially same day or back to back. You have to keep it fun so you don't burn him out on fetching.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:11 pm

To clarify what im doing because it doesnt seem to be clear In another forum, I am not throwing marks in force to pile. Like I said I did some before the sessions to reinforce retrieving singles at about 20 yards or so just to boost his moral but that wasn't in the pile drills.

For force to pile I am having the dog sit at my heel, putting a pile of 4 bumpers at 10 yards, commanding back/nick/back as he runs to the pile, he picks up the bumper, runs to me, sits at my heel then I get the bumper from him. Please tell me where I am wrong instead of just saying I'm wrong. Precise critique towards what im doing would be more valuable.

And no I'm not burning him during force to pile (or atleast what I'm clearly misunderstanding as force to pile). It's a short nick between commands.


Btw thanks for the advice. Ill try the bucket, that may help. Also weirdly enough a bunch of white styrofoam from a torn up cooler or something had blown from the water on to the land we were training in and I think that had my dog distracted because it looked like a bumper. I didn't think anything of it at the time because I thought a dog would think past it but I could see how at a fast run it would be confusing.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby cn44 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:18 pm

How often are you nicking him when you send him to pile? I have never done it but am watching TRT for about the tenth time and Lardy hardly nicks. Mostly freebies with a nick here and there.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:13 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:To clarify what im doing because it doesnt seem to be clear In another forum, I am not throwing marks in force to pile. Like I said I did some before the sessions to reinforce retrieving singles at about 20 yards or so just to boost his moral but that wasn't in the pile drills.

For force to pile I am having the dog sit at my heel, putting a pile of 4 bumpers at 10 yards, commanding back/nick/back as he runs to the pile, he picks up the bumper, runs to me, sits at my heel then I get the bumper from him. Please tell me where I am wrong instead of just saying I'm wrong. Precise critique towards what im doing would be more valuable.

And no I'm not burning him during force to pile (or atleast what I'm clearly misunderstanding as force to pile). It's a short nick between commands.


Btw thanks for the advice. Ill try the bucket, that may help. Also weirdly enough a bunch of white styrofoam from a torn up cooler or something had blown from the water on to the land we were training in and I think that had my dog distracted because it looked like a bumper. I didn't think anything of it at the time because I thought a dog would think past it but I could see how at a fast run it would be confusing.

Blue-
I agree, you've gotten some excellent advice on the other forum.
Also read Gonehuntins' sticky, and although he's a retired Trialer, with--well, those "older" methods, I'm still proned to believe based from the last 3 dogs I've completely FF'd that there's still a lot that can apply from that info. Also with Evan - there's a lot of dogs that, (using too much continuous and wrong timing), can create hotspots, bannana lines and bugging.
The last three dogs I've done pilework with were initially run to a short pile with continuous once or twice, and nicked off the line a couple times but thereafter when the pile gets farther away, less of that stuff.
Most of the ultimate pressure my dogs' have seen was in initial FF' and collar conditioning. That's what it's for. When the dog leaves there he understands pressure and what it means.
A WHOLE lot more experienced folks than me, but the fact your dog bolts, (or wants to) in Walking Fetch (to me) is a reddish colored flag of sorts.

Also believe that your dog is anticipating pressure on marks.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:14 pm

No he doesn't bolt on walking fetch that I remember. That was during force to pile and long marks. Had him on a long check cord and he wanted to turn and go his own way till I grabbed him and took him to the pile.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Tanner01 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Did not mean to imply that you are doing it wrong. Force to pile seems simple at a glance but the concept of pressure conditioning is what I think is more important in this drill. To much or too little pressure is wrong. Sometimes doing it right is still wrong for certain dogs. I learned this the hard way with my WPG. With my WPG my focus was about a fast run to the back pile and tring to move on to the next phase of training. I thought her running back with out me nicking her was great. I learned latter that she did not truly understand the collar pressure. I did a poor job of conditioning her. With my GSP I was focused on collar conditioning her and making sure she understood how to turn the pressure off. Extremely fair with a high standard was important but so wasn't the concept of introducing pressure for commands. Hard to explain this unless you see it being done by a true professional. They can read the dogs quickly and have done hundreds of dogs. Like you having to walk the dog to the pile, was he confused or just didn't want to do it. Wish I could help more, but when I am stuck I go to a great professional retriever trainer.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby crackerd » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:09 pm

Tanner01 wrote:Force to pile seems simple at a glance but the concept of pressure conditioning is what I think is more important in this drill. To much or too little pressure is wrong. Sometimes doing it right is still wrong for certain dogs. I learned this the hard way with my WPG. With my WPG my focus was about a fast run to the back pile and tring to move on to the next phase of training. I thought her running back with out me nicking her was great. I learned latter that she did not truly understand the collar pressure. I did a poor job of conditioning her. With my GSP I was focused on collar conditioning her and making sure she understood how to turn the pressure off. Extremely fair with a high standard was important but so wasn't the concept of introducing pressure for commands. Hard to explain this unless you see it being done by a true professional. They can read the dogs quickly and have done hundreds of dogs. Like you having to walk the dog to the pile, was he confused or just didn't want to do it. Wish I could help more, but when I am stuck I go to a great professional retriever trainer.
I usually get an hour of this is what you did wrong or it's not your dog it's you. :no:


Tanner, that's about as perfect a reply to a problem with a gundog not necessarily a retriever as has ever been posted on this forum. And if you added in the part about compulsion training in FTP it's just as good a reply for retrievers, too.

I think Bluesky gets it now - and I know he gets it about not throwing "happy bumpers" to boost the dog's attitude ahead of pile work (the cart ahead of the horse, as "somebody" told him elsewhere).

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Re: Force to Pile

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:54 am

crackerd wrote:
Tanner01 wrote:Force to pile seems simple at a glance but the concept of pressure conditioning is what I think is more important in this drill. To much or too little pressure is wrong. Sometimes doing it right is still wrong for certain dogs. I learned this the hard way with my WPG. With my WPG my focus was about a fast run to the back pile and tring to move on to the next phase of training. I thought her running back with out me nicking her was great. I learned latter that she did not truly understand the collar pressure. I did a poor job of conditioning her. With my GSP I was focused on collar conditioning her and making sure she understood how to turn the pressure off. Extremely fair with a high standard was important but so wasn't the concept of introducing pressure for commands. Hard to explain this unless you see it being done by a true professional. They can read the dogs quickly and have done hundreds of dogs. Like you having to walk the dog to the pile, was he confused or just didn't want to do it. Wish I could help more, but when I am stuck I go to a great professional retriever trainer.
I usually get an hour of this is what you did wrong or it's not your dog it's you. :no:


Tanner, that's about as perfect a reply to a problem with a gundog not necessarily a retriever as has ever been posted on this forum. And if you added in the part about compulsion training in FTP it's just as good a reply for retrievers, too.

I think Bluesky gets it now - and I know he gets it about not throwing "happy bumpers" to boost the dog's attitude ahead of pile work (the cart ahead of the horse, as "somebody" told him elsewhere).

MG

M.G.-
Read your input on those "happy bumpers" on other forum, and THAT input was as good as it gets :clapping:
The fact that he was doing that made me wonder too, that when the dog gets a mark he "knows" what's coming afterwards-i.e.,- pressure, and a bunch of drilling..in which could make the dog somewhat apprehensive towards retrieving in the first place.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Tanner01 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:00 am

I hope he does.
My WPG is a tough dog to train and its been difficult to get her to where she is at. I have tried hard to understand as much as I can about training and realized how easy it is to make mistakes along the way. The griffon would forgive me in about 4 to 5 hours (on a good day). Thank goodness my GSP forgives me in 4 to 5 seconds.
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Re: Force to Pile

Postby Bluesky2012 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:41 am

Well fortunately deer season is here so I'll have a reason to take some time off till i meet back up with the pro again this weekend to help guide me through it. Thanks for the help guys.
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