CC Kennel

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CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:42 am

Following smartworks DvD to get my dog used to e-collar for kennel command.

As brilliant as the dvd might be to some folks - i find it lacking almost everytime I move my dog into the next segment.

Anyway - question is. He has you lead the dog into the entrance of crate, say kennel - nick - kennel.

What happens when the dog goes in and instantly comes back out. Graham says to praise the dog only when in kennel, but its hard to do when he bolts out so fast. How he records this video and doesnt once say what to do if your dog bolts out is beyond me.



giving the kennel command w/ out the collar, although he doesnt comply 100% - The pup usually goes in on his own and stays. And flies in and stays if I have a treat. I've been giving this kennel command since day 1, so like 3.5 months now.




More repetitions or something like a continuous stimulation when he comes out? Block/hold the dog inside?
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:03 am

I can't speak for Evan, but I always taught it with two ropes on the dog, one to guide him in, one to guide him out. One rope leadinf through the back of the kennel, one from the front.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:58 am

Duck Diver wrote:More repetitions or something like a continuous stimulation when he comes out? Block/hold the dog inside?

I wouldn't use continueous,.. if pup does turn around and runs back in, there still could be collar stim, and then pup may not know know whether to crap or go blind.

Would say that if Evan suggests nicking the pup into the kennel upon a learned command and has included it in his collar training material, that he's proven that it can be done. What works for some dogs doesn't neccessarily work for others.

You're asking the same thing of your dog, but in a different way. My guess is that perhaps the timing of the nick, and the distance from the crate itself could pose a problem.
If you set the pup up too close to the crate when you make the command and nick him in there, he could associate the pressure with the crate- and you don't want that!
And if your timing is off on the nick, and you nick pup while he's in there, the same thing can happen.
Would believe a lot would depend on previous training use of the collar itself, and does the pup understand it.

The crate is a safe place for pup and should've been established as such some time ago. Kennel is the command to go into that safe place.
Don't know any of your training history, but if pups' been through 3-Handed Casting, eagerly takes a cast, and genuinely knows what "kennel" means, you can set pup up a safe distance from the crate so he won't associate the nick with the inside of the crate, and cast him in there.
Personally don't use the collar to nick pup to kennel myself. We just command HERE, pup arrives at your side, open the door and command kennel with a visual cue- easier when there's some fresh kibble in a dish for pup to run to :wink:
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:53 am

The other thing it could be and probably is from your post, is timing. If you burn that pooch in the kennel, he'll think it's "hot" and after preforming your command, want to get the Hell out of Dodge as soon as possible. Sounds from your post that you're nicking him in the kennel and you've created a "hot spot".

Never use continuous. It's been outdated for 30 years.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:18 am

gonehuntin' wrote:The other thing it could be and probably is from your post, is timing. If you burn that pooch in the kennel, he'll think it's "hot" and after preforming your command, want to get the Hell out of Dodge as soon as possible. Sounds from your post that you're nicking him in the kennel and you've created a "hot spot".

+1!

Never use continuous. It's been outdated for 30 years.

Gonehuntin' I gotta' question-
Hope the O.P. doesn't mind.
Does your transmitter allow you to hold continueous,.. and then at the same time turn the intensity level down and change the intensity to the collar without having to change intensity first before depressing the button. (?)
In other words, would holding continueous down and changing the intensity level at the same time change the intensity to the collar.
Mine does.

You know how I get these silly ideas from time to time and just HAVE to try 'em to verify whether I'm really an idiot or not :lol3:
Did it in pile work I'll share it whether it's right or wrong, but it actually made sense to me.
The times I did use continuous in pile work on longer piles, I began to gradually lower the intensity after the dog left the line and neared the pile, while the dog was running and approaching it while in continueous.
To me, it gave the dog more incentive to get to the pile as the nearer it got to it, the lower the pressure, and seems to me you can avoid hot spots, and everything else associated with a continueous burn to the pile. The timing of it was critical of course, you don't want to have the dogs' momentum slow, and yet you still want him to be forced to the pile.
Gave the dog a sense of accomplishment.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:46 pm

The dog really goes fine into the crate w/ kibble/treats on command. Not 100%, but acceptable.

Perhaps I should just skip this e-collar part. Got a few Private messages of people saying they don't use it on this command either.


Evan Graham also uses kennel for putting the dog into a truck, box, doorway etc. Not sure if i'll have any future issues following his material if I skip it now.


After reading the timing responses, I bet I had the dog too close to the crate. Only did 2 sessions and wasn't happy with either. I ended them pretty short.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:59 pm

Duck Diver wrote:The dog really goes fine into the crate w/ kibble/treats on command. Not 100%, but acceptable.

Perhaps I should just skip this e-collar part. Got a few Private messages of people saying they don't use it on this command either.


Evan Graham also uses kennel for putting the dog into a truck, box, doorway etc. Not sure if i'll have any future issues following his material if I skip it now.


After reading the timing responses, I bet I had the dog too close to the crate. Only did 2 sessions and wasn't happy with either. I ended them pretty short.


The reason you use the collar for "kennel" is to teach the dog to go away from you. There are three commands basic to all ecollar use: Kennel teaches the dog to move away from you. Here teaches the dog to come to you. Sit teaches the dog to stop and remain stationary.

I'm betting you're using the collar way too much on the dog.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:05 pm

If the dog doesn't know a command without the collar it is not gonna learn it with one. I don't see how telling a dog kennel the nicking him will get the point through. I have to say I only use a collar when a command is given and ignored. Nicking every time is gonna create a dog that thinks every word is gonna get him shocked. I am no pro and will never ever clam to be, but I have seen quite a few of my friends ruin dogs and now have low drive dogs that will retrieve but it's not pleasant to watch. With Lucy I trained her with no collar then introduced the collar to reinforce all the commands.

Please be careful as a collar can ruin a dog quick.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:08 pm

Always though kennel ment go in.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:15 pm

omaha wrote: I trained her with no collar then introduced the collar to reinforce all the commands.

Please be careful as a collar can ruin a dog quick.


And that is the correct way to do it THE E COLLAR ONLY REINFORCES KNOWN COMMANDS.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:17 pm

omaha wrote:Always though kennel ment go in.


It does. But to go in, the dog must move away from you. Later that will make "back" and "fetch" easy for the dog to understand.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:58 am

I guess I just don't understand the need for using a collar on the kennel command. I have never seen a dog not kennel when told to.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:15 am

Duck Diver wrote:Evan Graham also uses kennel for putting the dog into a truck, box, doorway etc. Not sure if i'll have any future issues following his material if I skip it now.
After reading the timing responses, I bet I had the dog too close to the crate. Only did 2 sessions and wasn't happy with either. I ended them pretty short.

How does Graham set the dog up for it? Believe you mentioned right outside the crate. I'm sure it has worked or it wouldn't be in his material. However, sometimes you have to back up and simplify things.
Not to discredit Evans' training method at all, but do know I've not ever had to use collar pressure to kennel any dog I've ever had.
Again-
The kennel/crate is a safe place for pup. And sometimes a fustrated trainer will kennel a dog because of a bad hair day in the training field, hey it happens and sometimes it's the best thing to do.
You just don't want to tell the dog you're pissed before you kennel him :lol3:
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby metalworx » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:22 am

Evan. Is a actually on the retriever training forum as user name Evan
U can go to that site and he answers training questions
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:58 am

omaha wrote:I guess I just don't understand the need for using a collar on the kennel command. I have never seen a dog not kennel when told to.


The need is that a collar dog should perform all commands with reinforcement of the collar. Here, Sit, Fetch, Heel, Down, Kennel, Back, Over; each and every command a dog learns is, once learned and understood, reinforced by ecollar. The kennel that was once a safe haven, now becomes a prop for de-bolting.

Push, pull, stop. Those three responses sum up the use of the ecollar. Each and every command a dog ever performs will be one of those a variation of one of those three responses. It is a complex tool and a simple tool but understanding the simplicity of it is what gives people so much trouble. We are and have been made a society that thrives on complexity and technology. To be able to break something down into such simple terms seems contrary to all we know and have been taught.

Dog training is really quite simple if you will simply use common sense. That's what dog training is and always has been. Common sense. Patience. Consistency. Discipline. Compassion.

If you can't understand why something is done, think about it. When a few of us old dogs began training, there were no books, dvd's or tapes. You figured it out and developed your own program. Some could do it, some could not.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:52 am

omaha wrote:If the dog doesn't know a command without the collar it is not gonna learn it with one. I don't see how telling a dog kennel the nicking him will get the point through. I have to say I only use a collar when a command is given and ignored. Nicking every time is gonna create a dog that thinks every word is gonna get him shocked. I am no pro and will never ever clam to be, but I have seen quite a few of my friends ruin dogs and now have low drive dogs that will retrieve but it's not pleasant to watch. With Lucy I trained her with no collar then introduced the collar to reinforce all the commands.

Please be careful as a collar can ruin a dog quick.



the dog knows the command, i've said that twice in my posts.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:55 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Duck Diver wrote:The dog really goes fine into the crate w/ kibble/treats on command. Not 100%, but acceptable.

Perhaps I should just skip this e-collar part. Got a few Private messages of people saying they don't use it on this command either.


Evan Graham also uses kennel for putting the dog into a truck, box, doorway etc. Not sure if i'll have any future issues following his material if I skip it now.


After reading the timing responses, I bet I had the dog too close to the crate. Only did 2 sessions and wasn't happy with either. I ended them pretty short.


The reason you use the collar for "kennel" is to teach the dog to go away from you. There are three commands basic to all ecollar use: Kennel teaches the dog to move away from you. Here teaches the dog to come to you. Sit teaches the dog to stop and remain stationary.

I'm betting you're using the collar way too much on the dog.


Following Smartworks - the dog has only been using the collar for here - until now.

Over the month or so he has had it, other then the first training sessions. he's been shocked maybe twice a week. He needs a reminder now and then, not constant use.

What did you base your assumption of me over using the collar on?
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:09 am

The need is that a collar dog should perform all commands with reinforcement of the collar. Here, Sit, Fetch, Heel, Down, Kennel, Back, Over; each and every command a dog learns is, once learned and understood, reinforced by ecollar. The kennel that was once a safe haven, now becomes a prop for de-bolting.

Push, pull, stop. Those three responses sum up the use of the ecollar. Each and every command a dog ever performs will be one of those a variation of one of those three responses. It is a complex tool and a simple tool but understanding the simplicity of it is what gives people so much trouble. We are and have been made a society that thrives on complexity and technology. To be able to break something down into such simple terms seems contrary to all we know and have been taught.

[/quote]


I believe you have a good understanding of what he's trying to show in the videos(Graham). Eventually everything is reinforced w/ e-collar. Sit and Heel start w/ choke chain and heel stick, but move to collar later.


In smartworks video. He stands close to crate. Takes dog on the lead and directs dog into crate while saying "kennel" w/ nick @ same time. Then repeats "kennel" Only praise the dog while inside the crate.

He says if you have been doing kennel w/ crate from early on it should be super easy for the dog. Shows you how to repeat w/ raising the crate gradually to get dog to jump into crate while elevated.

Thats pretty much all the info he gives. I'll try again, so I can stick w/ his program. Hard to stay farther from kennel and guide him in w/ 1 hand (lead) for timing etc. Not sure what the issue is still. I hate to try again and keep messing up. And I also don't want my pup afraid of his crate that he's laying in atm relaxing so I can type this....


Not sure whats harder - trying to figure out what info is missing from a dvd package i spent hundreds on or which internet advise to follow :-)

Thanks for replies fella's - have a great day
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:30 am

Gonehuntin' is spot on.
When, (if) you de-bolt, it's good to have a place where the dog "knows" he's "safe". He'll run to that safe place because it's already established. It can be the kennel, the back of the truck, whatever, as long as you provide an "escape route". But the kennel is a good bet.

Don't know if I can explain it as good as others can but-
You're "re-establishing" not so much of a safe place,..but the "best place" by following the given command. And that "best place" to be when commanded HERE is--by your side. There's no place the dog can go to other than by your side to escape the pressure.

The timing-
All I could do is offer up some thought. Hope you can see what I'm talking about-( accidentally making the crate hot). Maybe if standing directly behind pup and use the nick to "push" him in there would help. Would say your positioning would be of importance, just as the timing of the nick, the command, and the timing of the praise would.
Try not to over-think it, and complicate it.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:36 am

Duck Diver wrote:
omaha wrote:If the dog doesn't know a command without the collar it is not gonna learn it with one. I don't see how telling a dog kennel the nicking him will get the point through. I have to say I only use a collar when a command is given and ignored. Nicking every time is gonna create a dog that thinks every word is gonna get him shocked. I am no pro and will never ever clam to be, but I have seen quite a few of my friends ruin dogs and now have low drive dogs that will retrieve but it's not pleasant to watch. With Lucy I trained her with no collar then introduced the collar to reinforce all the commands.

Please be careful as a collar can ruin a dog quick.



the dog knows the command, i've said that twice in my posts.


The dog does NOT knoe the command or he'd kennel on command and STAY there until commanded otherwise.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:18 am

Duck Diver wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Duck Diver wrote:The dog really goes fine into the crate w/ kibble/treats on command. Not 100%, but acceptable.

Perhaps I should just skip this e-collar part. Got a few Private messages of people saying they don't use it on this command either.


Evan Graham also uses kennel for putting the dog into a truck, box, doorway etc. Not sure if i'll have any future issues following his material if I skip it now.


After reading the timing responses, I bet I had the dog too close to the crate. Only did 2 sessions and wasn't happy with either. I ended them pretty short.


The reason you use the collar for "kennel" is to teach the dog to go away from you. There are three commands basic to all ecollar use: Kennel teaches the dog to move away from you. Here teaches the dog to come to you. Sit teaches the dog to stop and remain stationary.

I'm betting you're using the collar way too much on the dog.


Following Smartworks - the dog has only been using the collar for here - until now.

Over the month or so he has had it, other then the first training sessions. he's been shocked maybe twice a week. He needs a reminder now and then, not constant use.
z
What did you base your assumption of me over using the collar on?


You don't understand "collar conditioning". He DOES need constant use so he becomes accustomed to it. Twice a week is NOT collar conditioning a dog. Stimulating the dog every third command or so it. You have to teach them to BEAT the stimulation and how to TURN THE STIMULATION OFF. You'll never do that nicking him twice a week.

I bases my assumption of over use based on your scant descriptions of the dog's behaviors.

It is very difficult as a trainer to train a dog over the net when you can't see the dog, his attitude, his posture.

Let's start here:

What is the dog's age?
How much training has he had?
Is he obedience trained on and off leash?
Are you into ff yet?
Have you exposed him to birds and gun yet?
Has he been exposed to water?

That'll give me kind of a handle on the dog.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:53 pm

I'll get some videos of the dog going into kennel on command over and over for ya. No I didn't train him to stay in there (not sure how). Perhaps I missed something in my videos, or perhaps again I feel a lot of important info is missing from the series.

He will go in, and stay certainly long enough for me to close the door. Doesn't shoot out. But if I leave door open I can expect him to exit with in 10-15 seconds. Also the door is open whenever he's not in it, and he almost never goes in it on his own(like to lay down and sleep). Some of the stuff I read made it sound like he would enjoy hanging out in his kennel.

I've never punished him and put him in. Never beat on it, never yelled at him in it etc. Always tried to make it a safe place for him.


So you're not confused - when I do the e-collar is when he bolts out. Like I said, only did 2 training sessions w/ it.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:11 pm

Let's start here:

What is the dog's age? 5.5 Months
How much training has he had? Just intro to basics - CC to here
Is he obedience trained on and off leash? No, just started choke chain & heel stick for heel/sit
Are you into ff yet? No - he's bleeding a ton right now. Not sure how long that takes for new teeth to come down.
Have you exposed him to birds and gun yet? Yes. 2 sessions w/ live pigeons. Mostly chased them and mauled them. Twice I threw dead doves last week. Retrieved them after a bit of mouthing. Extremely excited, got a ton of feathers in mouth , i threw the birds out
Has he been exposed to water? Once or twice a week for a month now, he gets ....3-4 retrieves on bumpers or dokken. Maybe 15 yards out.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:07 pm

Duck Diver wrote: Let's start here:

What is the dog's age? 5.5 Months


In my opinion, there is your first problem. He's too young and doesn't have enough training for collar conditioning. I like to have a dog totally trained in obedience, on and off leash, the cc him. I would typically train a dog for six weeks then cc him.

Duck Diver wrote: How much training has he had? Just intro to basics - CC to here


Now I think I'm beginning to see. You tell him Kennel. He kennels and you then nick him and command Here. Yoy have made the kennel "hot" for him and he thinks if he goes in and stays in, he'll get burned. You should NOT be usinf the collar yet on this dog. Have you determined the lowest intensity at which he will work?

Duck Diver wrote: Is he obedience trained on and off leash? No, just started choke chain & heel stick for heel/sit


Then you have the cart way before the horse. Stop collar conditioning him until he is fully obedience trained. Proper use of the stick and choke will teach him how to turn pressure on and off.


Duck Diver wrote: Are you into ff yet? No - he's bleeding a ton right now. Not sure how long that takes for new teeth to come down.
Have you exposed him to birds and gun yet? Yes. 2 sessions w/ live pigeons. Mostly chased them and mauled them. Twice I threw dead doves last week. Retrieved them after a bit of mouthing. Extremely excited, got a ton of feathers in mouth , i threw the birds out
Has he been exposed to water? Once or twice a week for a month now, he gets ....3-4 retrieves on bumpers or dokken. Maybe 15 yards out.


The rest is just fine. The collar only reinforces known commands. Go no further with the collar until he is fully trained. then teach all commands with the collar. If you don't, the collar will become a one function tool. Every time you hit him with the collar, he'll come to you rather than performing the command issued. Here will become his escape or default response.

I'll be interested to see the video.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:25 pm

Wow 5.5 months way way young. Slow down best advice I ever heard about dog training came from Chris Akin(sp)?. " anything in dog training is crawl, walk, run" slow down man I know the picture of a finished dog is in your head but enjoy the puppy time. The finished product will be here faster than you think. The more time you spend enforcing basics and going back to basics will make your dog that much better. My dog is 4.5 and I still will work on hold and walking on heel on and off lead with her holding a bird or dummy. Still basic force to pile work and baseball drill. You always have to refresh the ABC's. sounds like you are off to a good start but like said above pit the collar away till the spring. In my opinion that dog is a year away from hunting. I don't think a dog should hunt till at least a year, but a year and a half is better.
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