CC Kennel

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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Also. Don't like smartworks, I got a bad taste in my mouth after some emails with him getting told I needed to buy his DVD cause water dog was sooooooo out dated. I get the DVD watch it and was freaking pissed. To say the least, the video was the trainer doing the same drills as water dog but at e end there was a short segment or force fetch. No collar work no amazing innovative training method, literally it was almost water dog. I have since lost the DVD cause I had no need for it, and didn't learn a thing just lost 25 bucks. No it wasn't the full program but I was told I didn't need it cause of where my dog was. Just saying I personally don't like smartworks
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:24 pm

Again, appreciate all the feed back.

I bought Christ Atkin DVD, not sure what one, but I really enjoyed the video. It was enjoyable to watch. And liked his attitude a lot. He keeps it fun for the viewer. E. Graham tries to be a Harvard professor w/ every other page in his book quoting Websters dictionary and using words like demonstrous. But whatever, he is making bank and knows more than i ever will.

Thats the only other source I have other then smartworks.


Just so you guys know who don't own or have not watched smartworks. I've been following his series in order w/ 1 exception. Since i'm new to duck dogs as well as training them , i really don't have a guide unless I follow the program. Perhaps I should have moved through things slower.

I'll take all the advice given.

Just FYI - I didn't stimulate the dog while he was inside the crate.

Since CC to here was done early via Grahams methods... He has you not take the dog to its threshold. So basically increased pressure until I got a "demonstrous" response. Dogs that haven't followed his puppy program he does around 6 months and pushes the dogs to find there threshold, then backs the power down, and then uses resistance. After the first few collar sessions, I've been using tritronics pro 100 w/ a nick on 2 (nick is medium). It's plenty to get a solid response.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:44 pm

Just remember to have fun and end on a good note. Don't take it too serious. The dog is gonna mess up even after it gets older. Also I a, not saying dont use smartworks, I would watch it then watch Chris's DVD read online, watch Justin Tackett on du's website and kinda meld them to what fits your dog.

I used water dog to start but there was no lining drills for young dogs so I went online to du, found my answer.
Read on some website how to force fetch then watched some youtube videos got an idea then proceeded slowly.
I find that every time info onto learn from my dog and the next time I know to set things up differently so she succeeds and learns/reinforces the command.

Good luck man there are a lot of people on here that are very very knowledgeable. And above all else have fun. I miss those puppy days already.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:34 pm

Duck Diver wrote:
Just FYI - I didn't stimulate the dog while he was inside the crate.


Then you must have done it when he was headed for the crate?

It makes absolutely NO sense that the dog bolts from a crate when nothing has been done to him. Dog's don't do that. Every action is caused by a reaction. Think. Somewhere you've done something that you're not telling us.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby dogyak » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:14 pm

Yes , somehow you made the kennel hot . Hard for us to say without being there .I would leave that E-collar alone and get rid of it for awhile . What you have to understand is , each command taught has to transfer to the E-collar . For example , lead and chain , you teach sit , once pup understands--pressure is giving by chain for pup to obey . Next step is to transfer to heeling stick -- command sit as you apply pressure with chain the heeling stick is use at the same time ( timing is very important here) . Then you move to the E-collar doing the same format . You do this with each OB commands . If you don't , the pup will be confuse . I think gonehunting using a lead is the best way to teach the kennel at this point , run in thru the back , when you command kennel you or someone pull him in then praise . I never used the collar for kennel , nor a heeling stick or anything else for that matter . That's the first thing they learn the day they come home as a pup , so it's never been an issue . Break all your basic OB commands down one by one and slow down , best for your dog . OB is the foundation of gundog training :thumbsup:
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:36 am

I guess I also don't see a need to CC to kennel. Seems like a recipe for teaching a dog to bolt.
Don't get me wrong...I'm pro-collar and don't mind working through refusals, but cc'ing to kennel seems unnecessary.

Like dogyak, I teach kennel from day one. It's the very first command my puppies learn.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:50 am

CatSquirrel wrote:I guess I also don't see a need to CC to kennel. Seems like a recipe for teaching a dog to bolt.
Don't get me wrong...I'm pro-collar and don't mind working through refusals, but cc'ing to kennel seems unnecessary.

Like dogyak, I teach kennel from day one. It's the very first command my puppies learn.


In a sense, it does teach him to bolt. It is also the way he is de-bolted. That is the purpose. Teach the dog to move from you, teach the dog to come to you. Later, Kennel will transfer to Fetch then to Back.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:00 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
CatSquirrel wrote:I guess I also don't see a need to CC to kennel. Seems like a recipe for teaching a dog to bolt.
Don't get me wrong...I'm pro-collar and don't mind working through refusals, but cc'ing to kennel seems unnecessary.

Like dogyak, I teach kennel from day one. It's the very first command my puppies learn.


In a sense, it does teach him to bolt. It is also the way he is de-bolted. That is the purpose. Teach the dog to move from you, teach the dog to come to you. Later, Kennel will transfer to Fetch then to Back.


I understand what you're saying gonehuntin, I'm just having a hard time making the stretch from Kennel to Fetch, then Back.

To me, the two commands are as different as apples and oranges except in the most basic sense. Chaining the two might make sense to us, but I doubt a dog makes that leap.

However, you've given me something to think about. Good discussion.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Duck Diver » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:07 am

Short 1 min. video I shot this morning.


W/ out the treat dog doesnt want to stay in long at all. With the treat I call him out, but could probably hold him in there for a good while. Called him out quick to show a few of his entries.

I'm very understanding that this dog is not perfect on the command. Just showing you where he is at.

No collar on him.


http://youtu.be/Sv-XSckYxVw
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby Labs » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:23 am

The reason he is coming back out of the kennel, is because you have a handful of treats for him. He stays in while he is eating the treat, then it looks like he is coming back out for a treat.

Does the dog know sit? And is solid with it? Once the dog is in the kennel, command sit....close the door on the crate. Leave him in there for a little bit, Command "sit" and open the door....pup is going to want to come out. Command "no", push him back in and get the door closed on him. Show him that it is only ok to exit the kennel when you tell him too, which was sort of happening in your video....stop with the treats...he is exiting the kennel for the treat...this also goes for doorways...make him sit and only let him go out the door after you go through or you release him...

Once he is through FF, I assume that you are going that route, you can formalize the kennel command with the collar and it will be much smoother.

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Re: CC Kennel

Postby OmegaRed » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:26 am

Here's my view of that video:

You need to start back pretending he doesn't know what kennel is. Sit in front of his kennel with kibble, dog at your side. Toss treat in kennel and command kennel. The dog will walk in, eat it and probably come back out to you. After a few times, let him get the first piece, then toss another to keep him in there, and "kennel good kennel". Repeat for a week or so until he wants to hang out in there.

Then start working on kennel with one kibble, calling "here" to have him come out, and repeat. You can start getting a little bit further from the kennel. That room looks pretty small, and you were standing close to the kennel. When you call the dog "here" and point next to you, that's really a "here, heel" if you want him to stand next to you.

Furthermore, when he goes in after kennel, and then comes out and you say "uh uh" - that is not clear. He doesn't understand that the "uh uh" means it's bad he comes out of the kennel. Dogs do not associate it like that.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:55 am

CatSquirrel wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
CatSquirrel wrote:I guess I also don't see a need to CC to kennel. Seems like a recipe for teaching a dog to bolt.
Don't get me wrong...I'm pro-collar and don't mind working through refusals, but cc'ing to kennel seems unnecessary.

Like dogyak, I teach kennel from day one. It's the very first command my puppies learn.


In a sense, it does teach him to bolt. It is also the way he is de-bolted. That is the purpose. Teach the dog to move from you, teach the dog to come to you. Later, Kennel will transfer to Fetch then to Back.


I understand what you're saying gonehuntin, I'm just having a hard time making the stretch from Kennel to Fetch, then Back.

To me, the two commands are as different as apples and oranges except in the most basic sense. Chaining the two might make sense to us, but I doubt a dog makes that leap.

However, you've given me something to think about. Good discussion.


You are 100% correct they are totally different. The ONLY similarity to fetch and back in that it teaches the dog to move AWAY from you. That is it's value and why it is among the first commands cc'd to.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:01 am

Duck Diver wrote:Short 1 min. video I shot this morning.


W/ out the treat dog doesnt want to stay in long at all. With the treat I call him out, but could probably hold him in there for a good while. Called him out quick to show a few of his entries.

I'm very understanding that this dog is not perfect on the command. Just showing you where he is at.

No collar on him.


http://youtu.be/Sv-XSckYxVw


Good grief. That pup is NOWHERE near ready for an ecollar!
Watch yourself and ANALYZE YOURSELF.
You don't have him on a leash so he does what and when he wants.
You issue multiple commands for one action.
You let him evade you and jump on the couch rather than perform the command. One command, one response. Every time you issue a dog a command and he disobeys, he has beaten you and lengthened the training process.

Keep a leash on the dog. One command, then correction. HERE. KENNEL.

You're too slow. Tell him kennel and guide him in. When he starts out, then starts out, get in his face and command NO, KENNEL.
Hold him in with a hand on his chest.

Let him wear the ecollar but don't use it.

Treat him like you're collar breaking him. Maybe one treat per 4-5 correct responses.
Only treat him after the correct response NEVER before.
Try this for a few days then show us another video..
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:13 am

Get me straight if I say this wrong 'Gone.
What I'm getting out of what you're saying is-
Even though you're not commanding BACK and commanding Kennel,..you're making a command that in fact, does move the dog Back and away from you and done with a *nick.

But in order for it to be effective and compliment commands later on, (including BACK!), it might be a good idea to be positioned so that it matters.

Later on, perhaps in collar FETCH- pup will understand more about the *nick and the concept won't be so hard to grasp.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:21 am

swampbilly 1980 wrote:Get me straight if I say this wrong 'Gone.
What I'm getting out of what you're saying is-
Even though you're not commanding BACK and commanding Kennel,..you're making a command that in fact, does move the dog Back and away from you and done with a *nick. But in order for it to be effective and compliment commands later, (including BACK!), that will in fact move the dog away from you, it might be a good idea to be positioned so that it matters.
Later on, perhaps in collar FETCH- pup will understand more about the *nick and the concept won't be so hard to grasp.


You can make kennel as elaborate and as instructional as you want. Basically, all cc'ing on kennel does is to MAKE THE DOG MOVE AWAY FROM YOU. That's it.

Now, let's get innovative.

Pup knows kennel and complies 100% of the time.
Now let's teach him hand signals. Sit him in front of the kennel facing you (baseball). Command KENNEL, step toward him, and give him an overhand back. When he's doing this, sit him in front of the kennel, step toward him and command BACK. Or, Kennel-back. You get the idea.

You can do the same thing with over.

So, with that same boring kennel, we can teach a pup to kennel, teach over and back, teach here, and de-bolt him.

Pretty functional piece of equipment huh?

If you have a dunderhead and he just doesn't get the concept, double rope him in and out, always guiding, NEVER DRAGGING.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:27 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Pretty functional piece of equipment huh?


Sure is :yes:
You just have to be a little smarter than the crate that's all :lol3:
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:40 am

That's basically how Jim Dobbs advocated using place boards some 30 years ago.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby TCFarmer » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:47 pm

Duck Diver wrote:Following smartworks DvD to get my dog used to e-collar for kennel command.

As brilliant as the dvd might be to some folks - i find it lacking almost everytime I move my dog into the next segment.

Anyway - question is. He has you lead the dog into the entrance of crate, say kennel - nick - kennel.

What happens when the dog goes in and instantly comes back out. Graham says to praise the dog only when in kennel, but its hard to do when he bolts out so fast. How he records this video and doesnt once say what to do if your dog bolts out is beyond me.


giving the kennel command w/ out the collar, although he doesnt comply 100% - The pup usually goes in on his own and stays. And flies in and stays if I have a treat. I've been giving this kennel command since day 1, so like 3.5 months now.




More repetitions or something like a continuous stimulation when he comes out? Block/hold the dog inside?


I just watched Evan's video again. If you watch the very beginning of the kennel session Evan demonstrates how to kennel the dog on a leash.
1--Command kennel
2--Lead dog into the kennel with the leash
3--Kneel down in front of the kennel to keep him from coming back out.
4--Praise
5--Release the dog

You can also use separate ropes for kennel and release as someone else suggested.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:41 pm

Yeah still don't get kennel meaning back, I think your gonna end up make the kennel a hot zone more often then teaching back. That's just me but I see more damage, when you can teach hand signals with the simple base ball drill.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:00 pm

Honestly, kennel is such a basic command, I really see much ado about nothing.

Yes, the OP should clean up his command sequence/structure, but beyond that, well....I don't see a serious need to belabor it with a "force to kennel".

To me....you're just teaching a dog to bolt by making it a force based command.

Not that I'm not being adversarial to the other posters, because I'm always open to new information. This just seems unnecessary to me.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:05 pm

The kennel only becomes hot if YOU make it hot. It's easier for a pup to comprehend than baseball, because on every cast they have a known and trusted place to go.

Keep in mind this is something to play train pup's with. Personally, I don't do it. I like letting a dog mature then putting the heat to them.

However, years ago, when I had time to play with things like this, I had pups that handled at 5-6 months. When you're working with pup's this age, it's all about low pressure training and keeping attitude. You have to keep your mind open to new ideas, evaluate them, and use or discard them. I think that's one of the things that separate gifted trainers from the average Joe. Gifted trainers are always thinking outside the box and experimenting. Some things work, some don't. But it's how the great programs have been developed.

The kennel is nothing more than a place board and if you do your home work, they've been in use for over 30 years and still are today by some trainers.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:11 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:Honestly, kennel is such a basic command, I really see much ado about nothing.

Yes, the OP should clean up his command sequence/structure, but beyond that, well....I don't see a serious need to belabor it with a "force to kennel".

To me....you're just teaching a dog to bolt by making it a force based command.

Not that I'm not being adversarial to the other posters, because I'm always open to new information. This just seems unnecessary to me.


You DO in essence, teach the dog to "bolt". You then force "here" and de-bolt it. Now you've established two vital commands.

Everyone seems to think the dog's kennel should be his safe haven. Bah. A dog has NO safe haven. YOU are his only safe haven.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:20 pm

I see no value in this exercise of force to crate.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:23 pm

I see what you are saying, but I will agree to disagree. Just seems like more steps to the same result. But every dog is different and needs different approaches. I would be interested to see force kenneling and compare the 2 methods.

How many people using force kennel, started with smartworks? Just curious if he is the only trainer teaching this
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:31 pm

Absolutely not. It's been taught by most trainers for over30 years.
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