CC Kennel

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Re: CC Kennel

Postby omaha » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:40 pm

That's interesting, I wonder why I haven't seen it before/heard of it. I would be interested to see this
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:51 pm

You may have and not known it. When a trainer takes in a dog, those are probably the first two things done with the dog. Instead of a varikennel, the trainer uses the dog's assigned kennel. But he makes the dog go in on kennel and out on here.

The door into your house, a varikennel, a dog truck, a commercial kennel; they're all handled by the command kennel. Later on your lay out blind, his field blind, a platform in flooded timber, your boat: entry on to or into all will be handled be the single command "kennel".
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:03 pm

Everyone seems to think the dog's kennel should be his safe haven. Bah. A dog has NO safe haven. YOU are his only safe haven.


No. Then you create a clingy dog. A confident retriever is one that can work away from you. An over dependence on you as a handler is just as bad.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:52 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Everyone seems to think the dog's kennel should be his safe haven. Bah. A dog has NO safe haven. YOU are his only safe haven.


O.K. I'm guilty as charged :oops:
But I'm talking about pups dang 'ya :lol3: It's easier, (speaking for myself), to get him inside his crate or kennel, and left alone if he's content in there. If he's established he's "safe" in there, more than likely it'll be the first place he wants to run to later when you do de-bolt.
Can't stand the barking and crying at night either :hi:

I've only de-bolted 2 dogs in my life, but it's at that time don't care what he "thinks"- his best bet is beside me when commanded to be.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:58 am

CatSquirrel wrote:
Everyone seems to think the dog's kennel should be his safe haven. Bah. A dog has NO safe haven. YOU are his only safe haven.


No. Then you create a clingy dog. A confident retriever is one that can work away from you. An over dependence on you as a handler is just as bad.

That's an interesting view. I've always felt it was impossible to have a dog that is too dependent on you. The only time that would be true is if you start a dog popping. Usually when that happens, it's through imbalance in training. Each and every professionally trained dog is de-bolted. De-bolting is no different than ff or force to pile. That would be like arguing that ftp creates a dog that bolts from you. Balance. If you force him to come you have to force him to go. Balance.

These days I only run versatile pointing dogs. They're all de-bolted, they all have no safe haven but me, and they all work independently 200 yards from me. Balance.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:20 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
CatSquirrel wrote:
Everyone seems to think the dog's kennel should be his safe haven. Bah. A dog has NO safe haven. YOU are his only safe haven.


No. Then you create a clingy dog. A confident retriever is one that can work away from you. An over dependence on you as a handler is just as bad.

That's an interesting view. I've always felt it was impossible to have a dog that is too dependent on you. The only time that would be true is if you start a dog popping. Usually when that happens, it's through imbalance in training. Each and every professionally trained dog is de-bolted. De-bolting is no different than ff or force to pile. That would be like arguing that ftp creates a dog that bolts from you. Balance. If you force him to come you have to force him to go. Balance.

These days I only run versatile pointing dogs. They're all de-bolted, they all have no safe haven but me, and they all work independently 200 yards from me. Balance.


Gonehuntin...

It's not impossible to have an overly dependent dog. And popping is not the ONLY time a dog can be overly dependent.

Popping can be caused by other things than an "imbalance" in training. Perhaps our terminology is not jibing, but to me "imbalance" is an overemphasis on either blinds or marks. As we know, a dog will suffer if you overemphasize either marks or blinds.
But, popping can be caused by an over eager handler who handles too quickly on marks, a handler that applies too much pressure on blinds, or simply a dog that's used to being handled at a particular distance in pilework. That's not really an "imbalance" but more a handler error (in my terminology) that's promoted a lack of confidence.

There are other examples of an overly dependent dog.

Think about the dog who's corrected that bolts back to the handler. The "safe" place is under the handler's feet trying to escape pressure. How would a newbie deal with that? What does one do when the "safe" place isn't really a good place for a dog to be at all?

Rather than teach a dog that there's a "safe" place, I prefer to take training (particularly cc'ing) slowly and to teach the dog to have a stable response to collar pressure. (I know you do too). The dog can't escape (bolt) anywhere....Not to me, not to a crate, not under a truck, etc. This involves a lot of patience, entrenchment of skills through drills, and moving up to maintain control, but for me it pays off.

I've dealt with my share of bolting dogs....thankfully none have ever been mine.

Interesting discussion. I've enjoyed this. :smile:
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:16 am

CatSquirrel wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
CatSquirrel wrote:
Everyone seems to think the dog's kennel should be his safe haven. Bah. A dog has NO safe haven. YOU are his only safe haven.


No. Then you create a clingy dog. A confident retriever is one that can work away from you. An over dependence on you as a handler is just as bad.

That's an interesting view. I've always felt it was impossible to have a dog that is too dependent on you. The only time that would be true is if you start a dog popping. Usually when that happens, it's through imbalance in training. Each and every professionally trained dog is de-bolted. De-bolting is no different than ff or force to pile. That would be like arguing that ftp creates a dog that bolts from you. Balance. If you force him to come you have to force him to go. Balance.

These days I only run versatile pointing dogs. They're all de-bolted, they all have no safe haven but me, and they all work independently 200 yards from me. Balance.


Gonehuntin...

It's not impossible to have an overly dependent dog. And popping is not the ONLY time a dog can be overly dependent.

Popping can be caused by other things than an "imbalance" in training. Perhaps our terminology is not jibing, but to me "imbalance" is an overemphasis on either blinds or marks. As we know, a dog will suffer if you overemphasize either marks or blinds.
But, popping can be caused by an over eager handler who handles too quickly on marks, a handler that applies too much pressure on blinds, or simply a dog that's used to being handled at a particular distance in pilework. That's not really an "imbalance" but more a handler error (in my terminology) that's promoted a lack of confidence.


I agree with that.

CatSquirrel wrote:There are other examples of an overly dependent dog.

Think about the dog who's corrected that bolts back to the handler. The "safe" place is under the handler's feet trying to escape pressure. How would a newbie deal with that? What does one do when the "safe" place isn't really a good place for a dog to be at all?


By teaching the dog to sit. Sit is also a place of safe harbor. If a dog is correctly cc'd, he will NEVER leave the sit position until commanded and never come into the handler unless called. With a confused dog, the easy way to teach is with a double rope.

CatSquirrel wrote:Rather than teach a dog that there's a "safe" place, I prefer to take training (particularly cc'ing) slowly and to teach the dog to have a stable response to collar pressure. (I know you do too). The dog can't escape (bolt) anywhere....Not to me, not to a crate, not under a truck, etc. This involves a lot of patience, entrenchment of skills through drills, and moving up to maintain control, but for me it pays off.

I've dealt with my share of bolting dogs....thankfully none have ever been mine.

Interesting discussion. I've enjoyed this. :smile:


I'm different. I like the dog to bolt in training so that I can correct it. I'm still taking the training slowly but I ellicit the bolt on purpose. I may tempt him to run into the kennel, then harshly call him out. I may leave a crate open and let him seek refuge then take that refuge away. When a dog is PROPERLY de-bolted no other response is lose. They still sit, they still cast, they still fetch. Thing they DO do is that wherever they are and whatever they are doing, they ALWAYS immediately come when called. Same with the sit whistle. No matter what they're doing, that butt better leave a dust storm hitting the ground. On Back, I want dirt kicked in my face.

Many times we all accomplish the exact same thing just by different means. A pro has so long to show results so training is done in the most efficent manner. A pro also never avoids problems, many times he causes then solves the problem.

You're right, this is turning into an excellent discussion.

This is two or three we've had after a long, dead, summer! :yes:
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby i_willie12 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:38 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Watch yourself and ANALYZE YOURSELF.
You don't have him on a leash so he does what and when he wants.
You issue multiple commands for one action.
You let him evade you and jump on the couch rather than perform the command. One command, one response. Every time you issue a dog a command and he disobeys, he has beaten you and lengthened the training process.

Keep a leash on the dog. One command, then correction. HERE. KENNEL.

You're too slow. Tell him kennel and guide him in. When he starts out, then starts out, get in his face and command NO, KENNEL.
Hold him in with a hand on his chest.



AGREE with all of this!! Also doing some drill like this over and over and over and over..... Bores and confuses the dog!! Dog looks to not fully understand what is going on! It clearly knows what kennel is! Ok great move on dont keep beating it in its head You give command.. dog does it.. great dont have dog come out then send right back in Dog is confussed
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:46 am

Many times we all accomplish the exact same thing just by different means. A pro has so long to show results so training is done in the most efficent manner. A pro also never avoids problems, many times he causes then solves the problem.


We're not far apart on our training. I also elicit refusals and problems to solve them.

As an Am, I'm not under a deadline, so I usually develop my dogs slowly.
Trial season can't get here soon enough...been a long hot summer.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:32 pm

How'd you guys do at the summer trials?
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:24 pm

I don't send my dog north, so I train through the summer here in Louisiana. Obviously, there aren't any trials going on then.

First trial will be Acadiana in three weeks.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Best of luck to you and Razorback.
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Re: CC Kennel

Postby CatSquirrel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:25 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Best of luck to you and Razorback.


Thanks. Is Razorback running Acadiana?

I'll probably just run the Am. unless I can get out of an important business meeting that Friday.
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