"Other" Breeds

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"Other" Breeds

Postby bocraw » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:57 pm

I love my lab. But he isn't perfect. Some of the qualities I would like different in the next dog are: 1) Smaller size, 2) Tail that doesn't knock half full beer bottles off coffee table, 3) Quieter pant (I'm in hot Alabama), 4) Able to tolerate heat better 5) Nose doesn't shut down in high temperatures.

Every time I think I've found a different breed I'm smitten with, I learn that the breed is more "soft", and can't take training pressure like a lab can. I've been thinking that a Boykin would be my next dog. But yesterday I saw some trainers work with their Boykins, and I'm concerned the mud poodles personalities are too sensitive to me. I've successfully worked with German Shepherd, Border Collie, Boston Terriers, and labs. But my only true failure is a Brittany. I don't want to ever have another dog that is scared of thunder like that Brittany was.

Does what I'm looking for even exist? Is there such a thing as a lab alternative, that is primarily a pet, that an amateur like me can train to half decent hunt? A Vizsla maybe? I just find it hard to believe that a pireaux lab is the only alternative to a lab!
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Tanner01 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:23 pm

A German shorthaired pointer fits most of that and can still have that happy attitude that a lab does. I am sure their tails won't knock your beer over :smile:
Wire haired pointing griffon is more laid back and their coat can be stripped out for the hotter months. One nice thing is so little shedding especially compared to a lab.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby boykinhntr » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:51 pm

I still think boykins would be a good fit. AWS might also work well for you.
There are a few hardcore duck hunters around here that use GWPs...I think one is a DD.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Griffdom » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:03 pm

Most DD's should be able to handle some significant training pressure. Don't know if you hunt anything but waterfowl? A griff is a softer breed than the DD. If you arent able to keep your temper under control and are a yeller then another breed might be better for you than the griff. The griff can probably make you very happy if you can and aren't a yeller. You might also check out the PUdelpointer. They are intense water dogs that can get it done in the uplands if you hunt such game.

Based on your criteria I'm thinking a GSP from NAVHDA lines would fit you well given you need a dog that can handle hot temps. I personally would steer away from field trial lines given your need for a waterfowl dog.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby crackerd » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:35 am

bocraw wrote:Every time I think I've found a different breed I'm smitten with, I learn that the breed is more "soft", and can't take training pressure like a lab can. I've been thinking that a Boykin would be my next dog. But yesterday I saw some trainers work with their Boykins, and I'm concerned the mud poodles personalities are too sensitive to me.


Curious what those trainers might've been doing that revealed a Boykin's sensitivity - I've not seen it in 20-some years of owning them...If you train with the e-collar - of which Mike Lardy's mantra goes that it's the best thing ever invented for soft and sensitive dogs, if properly used (indirect pressure) following a training program. Did you use the e-collar or indirect pressure in training any of the other breeds you've referenced? "Training pressure" is tailoring your training to fit the gundog; do that and a Boykin trains just like a Lab. But again that's in your hands (with the e-collar) not their genetics. Also, I wouldn't hold the Britt accountable for being fearful of thunder, that happens to lots of dogs and while it can be a sensitivity issue, certainly wouldn't label it a breed issue.

Roll Tide Roll!regards

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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby romeocadet08 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:50 am

GSP all the way
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby bocraw » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:02 am

Thanks for the comments. Responses:

GOAL: The dog would be primarily a pet. It would hunt dove, quail, and duck. I do not hunt enough for the dog to be excellent in any of the above types of hunting. It would mostly be a pet.

GRIFFON: The griffon is not a breed I am familiar with. Reading about them is very interesting. I like the fact that they apparently work closer to you than a GSP. I'm reading mixed opinions as to whether they are easier to train than GSP.

DD: What is a "DD"? German for Pointing Griffon?

GWP vs Griffon: Pointing Griffon and German Wirehaired Pointer are not synonymous. Correct? Isn't the Griffon a rarer, smaller breed?

YELLING: Yes, I yell when the young dog chews up my possessions. For example: If the dog helps itself to my ribeye while I am getting a drink, I would like the option of grabbing it by the scruff of it's neck and scolding it like a child without the dog peeing on itself and being permanently ruined for the rest of it's life. I am fine with the dog putting it's tail between it's legs and sulking back to it's kennel. But generally, the dog has a much more pampered life than most hunting dogs including yelling, heal sticks, and other discipline.

Another example: When teaching heal I want to physically force the dog in the right spot without it shutting down.

I can't get my brain around how to Force Fetch a sensitive dog with the ear pinch method. Ear pinch is the way I know how to do it, and it seems like a sensitive dog would shut down during this phase.

ECOLLAR: Remember, I am an amateur. When teaching my dog casting I tried an eCollar. It would have been a disaster had I not read enough articles to know that an eCollar in the hands of an amateur is a quick way to ruin a dog. I decided to not use the eCollar with this one, and have never used one with previous dogs. It is unknown whether I will use one with the next dog. It is doubtful unless I become interested in field trials.

BOYKIN: The Boykin handlers said that there is a much higher success rate with labs than Boykins. In other words, you just have to understand up front that you might get a bad dog that is not good for hunting. This isn't a big deal for hunters, as they will just give the dog up and get a new one. For me, getting rid of a bad dog is not an option since the dog is primarily a pet and the women in my life will accept the dog unconditionally.

Under no circumstances do I want to get stuck with a dog that pees on itself when excited!

BRITTANY: I have been around Brittanys that I could work with, so yes, the particular dog I had was exceptionally sensitive. I am still not interested in that breed again, although I love their size, think they are beautiful, and love to watch them work.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby simplepeddler » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:33 am

I've been happy with my Wachtelhund.
He has been with a trainer now for two months ......
Trainer complements his abilities all the time.......dog is smart.

He is "slow" as compared to the labs.....he is only 24 inches or so at shoulder, so his legs can't go as fast as the dogs the trainer currently has.

He is as determined a hunter as anything I've ever been around......
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby crackerd » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:36 am

bocraw wrote:
BOYKIN: The Boykin handlers said that there is a much higher success rate with labs than Boykins. In other words, you just have to understand up front that you might get a bad dog that is not good for hunting. This isn't a big deal for hunters, as they will just give the dog up and get a new one. For me, getting rid of a bad dog is not an option since the dog is primarily a pet and the women in my life will accept the dog unconditionally.


Pardon me, but most of that is poppycock. I don't know many hunters - birddog owners notwithstanding - who "will just give the dog up and get a new one." Once upon a time that may have been true with Boykins, but no more - not at the puppy prices they're commanding now. (And corollary to that, with the better breeding practices that's going into them.)

As with any breed you can "get a bad dog that is not good for hunting," Labs in particular (show Labs). Since most Boykins are hunted as retrievers, and they as a rule retrieve coming out of the womb, where's the bad? That you didn't invest the time in training them and they showed their "stubborn, sensitive side?" I'm curious about these Boykin handlers - how well are their dogs trained, what for, and what kind of training have their dogs demonstrated?

And the "much higher success rate with Labs than Boykins." At what? Field trials? Boykins aren't eligible for field trials. For picking up doves? Can't be that in a million years. At getting your ducks? Debatable depending on where you waterfowl. At being better companionable house dogs? Also debatable. I've got both and there's nothing more companionable, by way of comparison in size and heart, than a Boykin.

Are you sure you're really wanting a small "sensitive" gundog for the next 13-14 years - especially to have to train and to have at your or your family's side either for company

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or for delivering the bounty?

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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby assateague » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:43 am

I just got a griff, and he's far from sensitive. When I yell, he often cuts his eyes at me and non-verbally cusses me back. Although I read the same things you've read about them, I think, I've found it to be far from the case, at least with this one.




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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby bocraw » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:34 am

It was worth starting this post just to see the cool pictures!

I have no doubt that a Boykin in the hands of a great trainer can be awesome. But I am not a great trainer. Labs are known for being easy to train, and I wonder if an amateur trainer like myself can get acceptable results from a Boykin. MG's points are compelling.

The Grif looks cool too.

I think another way to state this conversation, is that I'm trying to get a handle on how the breed personalities are different, generally speaking. If a Boykin is born with retriever instincts, I should be good. If I can teach a German Shepherd and Boston Terriers to retrieve to hand, I would think I could handle a boykin. The way MG describes them, a Boykin sounds similar to a Golden Retriever personality wise. What say you MG?
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby bocraw » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:36 am

PS: The best training book I've read is "Water Dog" by Richard Wolters. This should give you insight into my style, and why I'm wondering how it would apply to a GSP, Grif, or Boykin.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:04 am

bocraw wrote:It was worth starting this post just to see the cool pictures!

I have no doubt that a Boykin in the hands of a great trainer can be awesome. But I am not a great trainer. Labs are known for being easy to train, and I wonder if an amateur trainer like myself can get acceptable results from a Boykin. MG's points are compelling.

The Grif looks cool too.

I think another way to state this conversation, is that I'm trying to get a handle on how the breed personalities are different, generally speaking. If a Boykin is born with retriever instincts, I should be good. If I can teach a German Shepherd and Boston Terriers to retrieve to hand, I would think I could handle a boykin. The way MG describes them, a Boykin sounds similar to a Golden Retriever personality wise. What say you MG?


train a boykin the same way you train a lab but might have to pull some tricks out your sleeve for when you start drill work because from what i have seen and been told they get bored with drill work and the repetion of it but a quick change of bumpers to ducks every few sessions and you will get through it with no problem.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby crackerd » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:51 am

bocraw wrote:I have no doubt that a Boykin in the hands of a great trainer can be awesome. But I am not a great trainer. Labs are known for being easy to train, and I wonder if an amateur trainer like myself can get acceptable results from a Boykin... another way to state this conversation, is that I'm trying to get a handle on how the breed personalities are different, generally speaking. If a Boykin is born with retriever instincts, I should be good. If I can teach a German Shepherd and Boston Terriers to retrieve to hand, I would think I could handle a boykin. The way MG describes them, a Boykin sounds similar to a Golden Retriever personality wise. What say you MG?


I say, above all else, that I ain't a great trainer either, maybe competent at best, but that training a Boykin as a retriever can and will make you a better trainer than you were when you started. But again it's down to tailoring a retrieving program beyond Wolters and WaterDog to fit their temperament (and size) that will get you there with a Boykin.

I wouldn't compare them to a golden or Lab or Irish Water spaniel, though the latter along with the AWS, could give you food for thought. It's easy to say that their temperament is different than other gundogs because they're spaniels, thus happy, and also retrieving spaniels, thus exuberant in their work (if I'm not applying too much anthropomorphism). And for Boykins specifically, comporting themselves with just the right amount of challenge to make you want to try them on for size.

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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Griffdom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:14 pm

[quote="bocraw"]
GRIFFON: The griffon is not a breed I am familiar with. Reading about them is very interesting. I like the fact that they apparently work closer to you than a GSP. I'm reading mixed opinions as to whether they are easier to train than GSP.

DD: What is a "DD"? German for Pointing Griffon?

GWP vs Griffon: Pointing Griffon and German Wirehaired Pointer are not synonymous. Correct? Isn't the Griffon a rarer, smaller breed?

quote]

A DD stands for Deutsch Drahthaar, translated "German Wirehair." The DD and the German Wirehair Pointer (GWP) are the same genetically and a DD can be registered with the AKC as a GWP, but a GWP cannot be registered as a DD. The DD must pass certain requirements and hunt tests to be eligible for breeding in the German system. Some people consider the GWP and DD to be the same breed and others do not depending on who your talking too.

You right the GWP and the griffon are separate breeds. The griff is one of the four foundation breeds(i.e., the pudelpointer, wirehaired pointing griffon, the German shorhaired Pointer/DK, and the Stichelhaar) for the GWP/DD. The griff is considered on average a bit more sensitive and closer working that the GWP/DK. Does that help?
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Griffdom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:14 pm

I haven't seen many boykin's, but my friend has one that is a little over a year now. His has literally retrieved from the day my friend picked her up. She is a retrieving maniac. She has all the retrieve that a person would want. She is my buddies first hunting dog and he has trained her to kennel on command, sit from a distance on command, steady to shot and fall over water or land, etc. My buddy would not say that she is difficult to train, quite the contrary. Is she a bit sensitive, maybe, but she seems to bounce back fine after a little sulking.

As far as the griff goes they can be somewhat sensitive I'm told. Mine is still young so we will see how he turns out. But, at 7 1/2 weeks he and all of his littermates were swimming and he swam the first day I picked him up at 9 weeks. He also loves to retrieve on land and water. He is only 3 months old and gets excited when he can tell I am about to throw a bumper. I worked with him on some quail I bought this morning and he is starting to point fairly well. He pointed a quail for over a minute this morning. I will say though that as far as heat goes, they are not the best I'm told. I'm thinking a griff may not be best suited for south alabama. A pudelpointer, GSP, DK, DD, GWP, or boykin might suit you better in the Alabama heat. It is also more difficult to get a good griff than to get a quality hunting companion out of the other breeds mentioned. Although a group of breeders who hunt are changing this over time. I have narrowed my list of breeders that I would personally buy a griff from to probably about 7 breeders. Most of them are in the Midwest. Most of them do not ship so plan on a long road trip. I drove from Oklahoma to Wisconsin for mine.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Griffdom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:17 pm

It would hunt dove, quail, and duck.


With quail being in the mix you need to ask yourself if you want to hunt them with a pointer or a flusher. A pointer would probably be more effective for this game bird.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby OmegaRed » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:26 pm

Search around the hunting dog forum. Tons of cool dogs with lots of great pics.

I just got a DD this summer. She's almost 5 months now. Lots of stories out there about their worth. So far most seem to be truthful. They are required to do it all via the VDD (their breed organization). I would suggest spending some time reading through the requirements etc. as it's all very cryptic.

For the requirements you said, I'd suggest a GSP or a DK - short of being very high strung as a general rule.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby mikemac » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:13 pm

All my buddies hunt with Labs, while I have an AWS. The main difference I see in the hunting ability is that the Labs can bash their way thru the tall vegitation much easier than my AWS. He tries to push is way around them when he can. As for a house partner, the AWS is a very good choice. He needs exercise, but is very comfortable laying with his head on my wife's lap on the couch. Only 45 pounds, and not too tall, his tail does not knock drinks off the table (although he is know to counter surf for food). Good luck on your search. I am very happy with my choice.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:19 pm

I'm biased to my griffon, but wouldn't recommend one for a part time hunting dog in a warmer climate. I would go with a NAVHDA bred GSP or a Boykin.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:52 am

get a cocker spaniel and buy a set of whahl clippers. keep coat short in the hotter months the ears all year around and give a "head n hock" between shavings. love the go in our wee cocker he would be a better dog with a better trainer but he does most of what we could wish for.
much better around the house than a big dog he quite happy to sit in his basket and watch whats going on.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby TomKat » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:11 am

Jarbo03 wrote:I'm biased to my griffon....


You are????
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby TomKat » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:16 am

To the OP:

I don't understand your concern with Boykens.

From what I have seen, you would do well to get a Boyken. If I lived in the south that would be my choice. I have seen some very impressive work from them.

Now then, you may have to get out of your comfort zone and work more with one than a lab. I don't know if that's true, but I have seen that they have what it takes to get the job done.

And I agree with Jarbo on his reccomendation. His dog is one hell of a dog, but would be a poor choice for a part time pet dog. A dog like that takes a bigger than normal commitment to training, IMO. That motor never seems to run low.

I didnt hear you mention CBR? They wont be soft for you, and seem to do OK in the south.
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Re: "Other" Breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:11 pm

TomKat wrote:
Jarbo03 wrote:I'm biased to my griffon....


You are????

Yep. Nothin but the best for me.
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Postby TomKat » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:08 am

Jarbo03 wrote:
TomKat wrote:
Jarbo03 wrote:I'm biased to my griffon....


You are????

Yep. Nothin but the best for me.


Good to know.



I was looking at that 'other" brass today, shaking my head...
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