Quick question

Share hunting dog tips, hunting dog training questions or links of interest here.

Moderators: captainkevan, swampbilly 1980, HNTFSH, hunt-chessies

Quick question

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:30 pm

My pups starting to want to lay his head on my leg and lean on me. Best way to fix that. Also, sometimes when coming to me from a retrieve he will turn and sit right beside me right away but sometimes he will go a little behind me and then turn and come to my side and sit. Best way to go about that one?

Thanks!
User avatar
Morphsuit
hunter
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:12 am


Re: Quick question

Postby krazybronco2 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:18 pm

what are you using for reinforcement for sit with the pup? it if you are using a choker chain command sit and correct with a straight up pull of the lead. if nothing and the pup has a sloppy sit leaning on one leg command sit and step on the foot just hard enough to get a reaction. the stepping on a foot works my ex GF cocker had a sloppy sit and after about 3 days of constantly putting pressure on the opposite foot he started sitting correctly. also praise a lot for complying with any command.
User avatar
krazybronco2
hunter
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:09 am
Location: Grovetown GA

Re: Quick question

Postby Morphsuit » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:29 pm

krazybronco2 wrote:what are you using for reinforcement for sit with the pup? it if you are using a choker chain command sit and correct with a straight up pull of the lead. if nothing and the pup has a sloppy sit leaning on one leg command sit and step on the foot just hard enough to get a reaction. the stepping on a foot works my ex GF cocker had a sloppy sit and after about 3 days of constantly putting pressure on the opposite foot he started sitting correctly. also praise a lot for complying with any command.


Well, right now we're working on forcing to pile. When he brings back a bumper he wants to run past me a little then turn and come to me and sit. So, all he has on is the e-collar. I was stepping on the foot and it fixed that, but now that we've started this, he's randomly doing it again.
User avatar
Morphsuit
hunter
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:12 am

Re: Quick question

Postby TNken » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:43 pm

If you can set up with an obstacle (wall,fence,car) behind you, he can't run past you.
TNken
hunter
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:27 pm

Re: Quick question

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:46 am

Morphsuit wrote:
krazybronco2 wrote:what are you using for reinforcement for sit with the pup? it if you are using a choker chain command sit and correct with a straight up pull of the lead. if nothing and the pup has a sloppy sit leaning on one leg command sit and step on the foot just hard enough to get a reaction. the stepping on a foot works my ex GF cocker had a sloppy sit and after about 3 days of constantly putting pressure on the opposite foot he started sitting correctly. also praise a lot for complying with any command.


Well, right now we're working on forcing to pile. When he brings back a bumper he wants to run past me a little then turn and come to me and sit. So, all he has on is the e-collar. I was stepping on the foot and it fixed that, but now that we've started this, he's randomly doing it again.

If I'm reading this right it sounds like maybe you stepped on his foot for leaning on you at SIT after the dog came to HEEL beside you after a return in pile work(?)
Now suddenly (?) he's running past you.(?)
Perhaps the dog doesn't want to come to HEEL right away from fear of getting stepped on.

Eager dogs will over-run you running hard back on a return, but if you're doing pile work in an open training field with nothing to give you a barrier, such as a fence (as mentioned), it might be a good idea to simply re-enforce HERE.
If your dog is getting "clingy" from pressure, it might be a good idea too, to whistle SIT the dog remotely to a front SIT after commanding HERE , and walk away, (in sessions separate from pile work), then command HERE, and with the dog on a lead with good lead control, "re-fresh" pup with some good HEELING ethics.
REPS.
If you start using a bunch of pressure directly on the line, (no matter what form of it), you're going to start running into some big problems. Don't make pile work a huge Obedience session with a big ta-doo around the line.
You're forcing him BACK -that's the lesson.
Swampbilly1980- I got a feeva',..and the only cure is more Mergansers and face paint.
User avatar
swampbilly 1980
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 9104
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Gloucester,Va.

Re: Quick question

Postby Morphsuit » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:14 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:
krazybronco2 wrote:what are you using for reinforcement for sit with the pup? it if you are using a choker chain command sit and correct with a straight up pull of the lead. if nothing and the pup has a sloppy sit leaning on one leg command sit and step on the foot just hard enough to get a reaction. the stepping on a foot works my ex GF cocker had a sloppy sit and after about 3 days of constantly putting pressure on the opposite foot he started sitting correctly. also praise a lot for complying with any command.


Well, right now we're working on forcing to pile. When he brings back a bumper he wants to run past me a little then turn and come to me and sit. So, all he has on is the e-collar. I was stepping on the foot and it fixed that, but now that we've started this, he's randomly doing it again.

If I'm reading this right it sounds like maybe you stepped on his foot for leaning on you at SIT after the dog came to HEEL beside you after a return in pile work(?)
Now suddenly (?) he's running past you.(?)
Perhaps the dog doesn't want to come to HEEL right away from fear of getting stepped on.

Eager dogs will over-run you running hard back on a return, but if you're doing pile work in an open training field with nothing to give you a barrier, such as a fence (as mentioned), it might be a good idea to simply re-enforce HERE.
If your dog is getting "clingy" from pressure, it might be a good idea too, to whistle SIT the dog remotely to a front SIT after commanding HERE , and walk away, (in sessions separate from pile work), then command HERE, and with the dog on a lead with good lead control, "re-fresh" pup with some good HEELING ethics.
REPS.
If you start using a bunch of pressure directly on the line, (no matter what form of it), you're going to start running into some big problems. Don't make pile work a huge Obedience session with a big ta-doo around the line.
You're forcing him BACK -that's the lesson.


Is that ok for the pup to over-run you when running hard back? Or should that be fixed?
User avatar
Morphsuit
hunter
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:12 am

Re: Quick question

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:17 am

Morphsuit wrote:Is that ok for the pup to over-run you when running hard back? Or should that be fixed?

No it's not "ok", but but you need to establish why the dogs' doing it.

There's a big difference in a dog that's charging back to you on a return and over-runs you vs. a dog that charges back and is avoiding coming to HEEL showing signs of reluctance.
You just need to figure out which one it is, in order to come up with the right Rx.

You didn't answer whether or not you were stepping on the dogs' feet at the line in FTP. If you overdid that you may have created your own problem there.
Only you would know.
Swampbilly1980- I got a feeva',..and the only cure is more Mergansers and face paint.
User avatar
swampbilly 1980
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 9104
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Gloucester,Va.

Re: Quick question

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:04 am

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
Morphsuit wrote:Is that ok for the pup to over-run you when running hard back? Or should that be fixed?

No it's not "ok", but but you need to establish why the dogs' doing it.

There's a big difference in a dog that's charging back to you on a return and over-runs you vs. a dog that charges back and is avoiding coming to HEEL showing signs of reluctance.
You just need to figure out which one it is, in order to come up with the right Rx.

You didn't answer whether or not you were stepping on the dogs' feet at the line in FTP. If you overdid that you may have created your own problem there.
Only you would know.


Billy gets it, both in this post and his previous one. :clapping: IME there are several reasons for sloppy sits, and some of them are based in physical discomfort. I once had a BNT make a total jackass out of himself at a seminar trying to correct my young male with the step on the foot deal. The fix I use will depend upon my assessment of the reason for the behavior, everything from simply stepping to the right just as the dog starts to lean into my leg and letting him tip over, to teaching a square sit in a separate context, to taping a wire brush to the handler's left leg. Also, when I first formalize heeling and heel position on leash, I begin by placing the dog in the sit in a manner that helps him sit squarely, and I insist he sit quickly, because it takes longer for a dog to rock over.

A retrieve is a chained behavior, composed of several links. When I train, I teach, condition (repetition, not CC) and proof/perfect each link individually before chaining begins. If a problem with one link in a chain crops up later on in training, I do not automatically assume the dog is giving me the gears; my default idea is that I have not done my job well enough and go back and re-school the problem behavior singly before I start correcting. My rule is, the dog has to clearly understand a correction is a result of his own behavior (and thus he is in control of whether he gets corrected or not); if he does not understand this, you will probably get a response to correction that is not the one you were looking for, especially if the "wrong" response is prompted by anxiety.

One should not be getting failures of multiple links in a chain, and if one does, the first thing one should do is S.T.O.P and give some thought to the possibility that the fault is with the trainer, not the dog. JMHO
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
User avatar
Dawnsearlylight
hunter
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:19 pm
Location: western NY

Re: Quick question

Postby SoupSandwich99 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:42 am

Morphsuit wrote:Is that ok for the pup to over-run you when running hard back? Or should that be fixed?


One thing that has helped me is the understanding that, with a younger dog, you are not really making them do what you want them to do as much as you are setting up the situation such that they can only do what you want them to do and doing it often enough to make it a habit.

Your dog running behind you is a case in point. I asked the same question and I got the same answer you did, which was to back up to a fence or something so he couldn't go behind you. I thought that was the dumbest thing I had ever heard, because I would not have a fence or other barrier to back up to in a hunt test or hunting environment. It's at least logically consistent, right?

Luckily someone explained to me that if you would use a fence to show the dog what you want, and do it it enough that he knows that's what you want, when you move away from the fence it will only take a couple well-timed corrections for going behind you again for the dog to remember that nothing bad happened when he didn't go behind you and bad stuff happened when he did, so maybe he should not go behind you.

Same thing with keeping the dog on lead while retrieving. You want to get to the point where the dog comes back because that is just what he is in the habit of doing - because he has not been allowed to do anything else. When you collar condition and remove the lead, the dog will try to do something different, and a couple corrections will push him right back into his old habit of just coming back.

If you will think about it like that, that you are trying to create habits that can later be enforced if necessary, so you want to be as clear as possible as to what the habit needs to be, maybe that will help. Well, that and a much more experienced person telling you that, which is what happened to me. What it also meant to me was that I needed to stop and think about what I was trying to teach and whether my setup allowed for the possibility of anything else taking place. If so, maybe a change is in order.
SoupSandwich99
hunter
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:22 pm


Return to Hunting Dog Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GypsyDanger and 25 guests