Charcoal labs!

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby ks_waterfowler » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:22 pm

Chaws wrote:
Catdaddy89 wrote:Well then why is a "red" which is only bred for color still a good dog but a charcoal a piece is chit? I'm not following y'all. You keep saying that they are junk and not labs but no one has told me a background or a breed cross. Why is there such a devout hate for the charcoal? I would also like to re-iterate I do not want a silver I want a charcoal. Is there a difference in the two? I hate to seem ungrateful forthe info you have given me but no one has really hit my question.


Obtaining the darkest of the yellow color range has been somewhat bred for but there are some black parents that carry the yellow gene that will tend to produce darker yellow offspring. I know of a couple FC dogs for example that tend to deliver offspring of the darker yellow and sometimes referred to as "Red" by breeders looking to market them to uninformed buyers.

Charcoal or Silver, both are born from parents carrying the extremely recessive dilute color gene. There isn't definite proof of their lineage containing a different breed though, however there is a tendency where people believe there's a weim in the mx a ways back due to eye color, common ear size, and just the nature of their build being shorter hair and longer legs than the AKC standard of a labrador.

The reason for the backlash of users here to the designer colors is because of many that have already been named, you have failed to read them. I posted numerous reasons why they're typically not desirable or encouraged to be purchased if you're looking for a working dog or even for anyone for that matter. Due to the extreme low probability of a dog to carry these very very recessive dilute color genetics, an exceptional amount of inbreeding and selective breeding only for that color takes place. When a gene pool is so small, often times breeders overlook the primary reasons for selective breeding practices. Those practices should include health of eyes, hips, elbows, EIC, CNM and PRA. Those practices should also include pairing dogs with the most desirable traits of marking, confirmation to the breed standard (size, build, coat, tail), mouth, biddability (training capability to learn quickly without excessive pressure or time), water attitude and temperament.

In order to provide a complete litter of all offspring displaying the dilute color genes visually and with these dilute dogs being of such a small small gene pool, the breeders aren't able to be selective enough when pairing sire and dam for a breeding. It's nearly impossible for them to cover their bases on everything I mentioned in the last paragraph all while still being able to produce multiple litters of these designer colors.

There's a direct correlation to why you see so many more extremely good black labs than other colors. Their gene pool is massive due to its dominant color genetics so there are very large lists of some of the best dogs to breed to. It's getting substantially better, however offspring of the chocolate color were originally culled from original breeding lines hundreds of years ago because of its very recessive nature. Views changed and more chocolates were available and then people started breeding just for the chocolate color in the same way these current dilute color labs are being bred. Many years later, you might see a couple chocolates capable of competing with the best dogs in the country each year at the National Field Trial. They're starting to be bred better but there are still a lot of breeders just going for the color today.

Great info. When we were looking for our chocolate lab we actually had to search fairly hard for a smaller chocolate that had a hunting background and health clearances. So many folks breeding chocolates for color it was rediculous.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby CatSquirrel » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:35 pm

The idea that chocolates are somehow deficient because of color is simply absurd.

If you have a nicely bred chocolate, they're as capable as any dog out there.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby DCronk » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:12 pm

ImageImage

Here are a couple of pics of my "fake" charcoal lab. She has a pretty great drive for birds so maybe I just got lucky. She is a great family dog as well and very obedient. With that being said, if I had to do it over again I would probably get a dog with field proven parents to increase the odds of getting an awesome gun dog. When I got her I didn't know everything I do now, but I'm very happy with her.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby dogyak » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:44 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:The idea that chocolates are somehow deficient because of color is simply absurd.

If you have a nicely bred chocolate, they're as capable as any dog out there.

:thumbsup: well said
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby dogyak » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:51 pm

cronkdre wrote:ImageImage

Here are a couple of pics of my "fake" charcoal lab. She has a pretty great drive for birds so maybe I just got lucky. She is a great family dog as well and very obedient. With that being said, if I had to do it over again I would probably get a dog with field proven parents to increase the odds of getting an awesome gun dog. When I got her I didn't know everything I do now, but I'm very happy with her.

Nothing fake about a lab that will fetch what you shot . She is making you happy and as you said , pretty good drive . She has taught you to be a better trainer for the next one , I say you won brother :yes:
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby labsforme » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:46 am

The question of chocolates being deficient is rediculous. Look at many early chocolates and you see some very well bred dogs.NFC Del-Tone Colvin being one.Current chocolates FC/AFC Roux, some dog called Ammo ( 2 x Canadian National Finalist, all time high point derby dog etc), AFC Tick and many more.
The question being brought up about the "designer breeds" is why call something what it isn't. They are NOT chocolate, black, or yellow which is what they have to be registered as because the colors that they are are not recognized nor accepted by the Labrador Retriever Club of America which is the parent club of labs.Nor should they be recognized.

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Takem_Brewer » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:11 am

If you are serious about a dilute lab, check out this site. duckflatretrievers.com They have a silver and charcoal litter due with all health clearances. The sire is a junior hunter. Sire's parents do not have any health clearances and looks like one half sibling did not pass hips. The dam's sire has all health clearances and the dam's dam has fair hips.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby TCFarmer » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:45 am

CatSquirrel wrote:The idea that chocolates are somehow deficient because of color is simply absurd.

If you have a nicely bred chocolate, they're as capable as any dog out there.


I know some think chocolates are inferior in general, but don't think people are suggesting that here. Just that some times when you breed specifically to get a chocolate, sometimes you have to sacrifice other traits.

Besides, it's always fun to tease the person in your training group that has a choco.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:27 pm

Besides, it's always fun to tease the person in your training group that has a choco.


Yea...except it's only funny the first couple of hundred times you hear it.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Chaws » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:27 pm

Takem_Brewer wrote:If you are serious about a dilute lab, check out this site. duckflatretrievers.com They have a silver and charcoal litter due with all health clearances. The sire is a junior hunter. Sire's parents do not have any health clearances and looks like one half sibling did not pass hips. The dam's sire has all health clearances and the dam's dam has fair hips.


This just proves the fact in the lack of quality in the breeding. Sire only having a Junior Hunt title (JH). Even fluffy dogs in the show rings can obtain a JH title and they have little prey drive and minimal marking capability. Sires parents have no health clearances and siblings unable to pass hips. That's just destined for problems. Pairing that with a dam who has pedigree history of unsatisfactory hips. Look for a sire and dam with a couple generations of proving health clearances with Good or better rated hips, elbows, eyes, and other genetic tests for EIC and CNM.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby QuackHead89 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:46 pm

CatSquirrel wrote:This is a working dog forum, so the general advice is going to be get a dog that's health certified and from proven stock.

Charcoals are neither.

If the OP wants to spend his time trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t that's his business.

Frankly, I'd rather endure a week of the wife's wrath than deal with a bootlicker for the next 15 years.


Hahaha Tickled the sh*t out of me
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Takem_Brewer » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:02 pm

Chaws wrote:
Takem_Brewer wrote:If you are serious about a dilute lab, check out this site. duckflatretrievers.com They have a silver and charcoal litter due with all health clearances. The sire is a junior hunter. Sire's parents do not have any health clearances and looks like one half sibling did not pass hips. The dam's sire has all health clearances and the dam's dam has fair hips.


This just proves the fact in the lack of quality in the breeding. Sire only having a Junior Hunt title (JH). Even fluffy dogs in the show rings can obtain a JH title and they have little prey drive and minimal marking capability. Sires parents have no health clearances and siblings unable to pass hips. That's just destined for problems. Pairing that with a dam who has pedigree history of unsatisfactory hips. Look for a sire and dam with a couple generations of proving health clearances with Good or better rated hips, elbows, eyes, and other genetic tests for EIC and CNM.


I don't condone the breeding to dilute labs. You state to look for a sire and dam with a couple generation of clearances, well that just doesn't happen with dillute labs...This was the closest I could find that come with any sort of hunting title. There is one master hunter silver lab but don't think he is bred to dilute blacks, so did not mention him. His name is Carolinas silver smoke and there is a facebook page named after him.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Takem_Brewer » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:20 pm

Here's the thing about the dilute labs. They aren't going anywhere. Anything you say is not going to make them disappear so why even argue whether they are or are not truly purebred anymore.

Instead, inform the buyers about the health problems and what to look for in terms of health certificates. Some people want a certain color and it is no different than one person looking for a black lab or a yellow lab. By informing people of the health certificates, they are more likely to buy from someone who is doing health clearances and taking sales away from people who do not care about health!

Like I've said before, some people on this forum need to lighten up. Just because you are against something does not mean everyone else should be as well! This is not directed at any one person.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:59 pm

Hey guys sorry I been out. Just busy with the house and working. I read through everyone's comments and appreciate the info. I got set on a black but the lady has a pretty strong trump card if you know what I mean. I made a deposit with a breeder from Arkansas. She has a litter due in November. If it kicks a male char then I will have dibs on him. I made sure she had the health papers and he comes with a guaranty for two years I believe.... Can't remember at the moment. I hope it pays off if not I'll have a pet and start looking for another in a year.5 maybe two. I do appreciate the info though as I said before. I knew very little about health problems and hip issues. I can't say I didn't open up without expecting criticism so no hard feelings here.

I would like to hijack my own thread here and ask about training aids. I saw the fowl dogs mentioned before. Does everyone agree on that or will another can of worms transpire? Thanks for all the guidance

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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Minneguy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:16 am

cominahead wrote:silver creek Labrador
http://www.silvercreeklabrador.com/
contact billy he is with a group of silver lab breeders out of Montgomery tx
silver labs are not weim and lab mix

I have read many articles that state differently. It goes back to poor breeding practices by the Kelloggs, look it up it is pretty easy to find info.


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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby berudd » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:17 pm

Since someone else resurrected this old thread I'll throw out an observation. If seen quite a few discussion similar to this one where the outcome of designer breeds is discussed. What I have seen is that when some people say that designer breed "may increase the chances of problems and may reduce the viability of a hunter" people that like these dogs misinterpret this to mean "these dogs will always be crap". I have no doubt there are examples of these breeds that have made great hunting dogs. Heck I am sure there are complete mutts that have as well. But, I would expect that the percentage that do is lower that that of dogs from lines dedicated to producing healthy hunting dogs because, as others have articulated, these dogs where not bred with hunting ability being the primary goal. Again, it does not mean these dogs won't hunt, it just means your odd are better with hunting lines.

I wonder how the OP fared? If he got is charcoal dog and if so how its going. I always feel for the guys that come on here and say they want a hunting dog but the wife has placed some cosmetic restrictions. I faced a similar situation because my wife wore out several vacuum cleaners with my old Lab as she was doing her best to solve the worlds dog hair shortage. I almost went with a Boykin as a compromise until my wife messed up and asked what the best duck dog was. I smiled and pointed at my old black lab. Within days I had a deposit on a pup. :) Luckily she does not shed much but the flip side is her coat is not a full as I would like for cold water.

I also wonder if the OP discuss the potential health risks associated that may come with a dog bread for color. If so, would she still have wanted the dog knowing that there may be a higher chance if him passing early due to health issues.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Minneguy » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:15 pm

Yeah I'm that guy who resurrects a dead thread... Whoops.


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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby hedge » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:21 pm

Catdaddy89 wrote:Hey guys sorry I been out. Just busy with the house and working. I read through everyone's comments and appreciate the info. I got set on a black but the lady has a pretty strong trump card if you know what I mean. I made a deposit with a breeder from Arkansas. She has a litter due in November. If it kicks a male char then I will have dibs on him. I made sure she had the health papers and he comes with a guaranty for two years I believe.... Can't remember at the moment. I hope it pays off if not I'll have a pet and start looking for another in a year.5 maybe two. I do appreciate the info though as I said before. I knew very little about health problems and hip issues. I can't say I didn't open up without expecting criticism so no hard feelings here.

I would like to hijack my own thread here and ask about training aids. I saw the fowl dogs mentioned before. Does everyone agree on that or will another can of worms transpire? Thanks for all the guidance

Ethan

WOW ,TRUMP CARD .
I don't even know what to say .
good luck with the new pup at least you won't be sleeping in the doghouse hahaha 0
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby bakerloo » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:04 pm

berudd wrote: I always feel for the guys that come on here and say they want a hunting dog but the wife has placed some cosmetic restrictions.


I wanted a chocolate or a yellow lab. My wife told me to research the national field trial winners. 90% of those are black. Yes, there are a few chocolates and yellows but if you're a betting man; bet on the black dog. So, I have a fantastic black dog that I wouldn't trade for anything. Do I still want a choco? Oh hell yes! If I can find the right litter 10 years from now, I will get a chocolate.
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Labs » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:37 pm

berudd wrote: I always feel for the guys that come on here and say they want a hunting dog but the wife has placed some cosmetic restrictions.



If your wife gets to place cosmetic restrictions on your hunting partner, what cosmetic restrictions do you have for her? Double D and 125 lbs max? I guess I would cave too, if she lived up to her end...:)


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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby labman63 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:41 am

I have a black charcoal and a chocolate charcoal right now. 1 is 10 weeks old and the other is 8 weeks. They both like to play under the outdoor fire pit and get charcoal all over them. I guess they want to be in "style"
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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:09 pm

Image

Here he is. He's grown quite a bit since that picture. Born November 10. He's sitting and retrieving dead birds already. I am more than happy with him and appreciate the advice given here. Had a little parvo scare but was a false alarm. The breeder reimbursed my vet bill the same day. I hope he stays smart lol. Only time will tell.
Image


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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Minneguy » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:23 pm

I'm not a color fan, but that's a great looking pup man. Looks like you're teaching him something. And the breeder is obviously not a pud, so kudos!


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Re: Charcoal labs!

Postby Catdaddy89 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:39 pm

Thanks!


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