Dog afraid of ducks?

Share hunting dog tips, hunting dog training questions or links of interest here.

Moderators: hunt-chessies, HNTFSH, captainkevan, swampbilly 1980

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby James Seibel » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:13 am

xxDuckWildxx wrote:Very good advice here fellas, I really value and respect all the info. I can now see light at the end of the tunnel again!

James, I think the point my friend was trying to make was that pro trainers are more prone to fast and forceful training because time and results are money. The faster they can push a dog through FF or any other training the sooner they can get on to the next dog and if they take too long they fear a bad reputation of "'milking the clock" if you will. So I could kind of see his point. My dog has bloodlines, I had him shipped in as a pup from the Midwest to here in PA. He's got talent and my buddy recognized that. I think he just feared the possibility of having a trainer ruin this dog. To say I've been completely confused for the past 15 months would be a huge understatement!

If I were to start FF at this time, it is my understanding that I will have to quit hunting and training until
FF is complete. Is this correct? Do you all agree it's best to have someone else put the dog through that training or is it best for me to do it?


In your original post you say your dog retrieves Triples to hand . I take it your pup comes out of water and does not drop the bird nor shake till delivered to hand ? Does not have a obedience problem either .

In that case there are many trainers that continue to give marks to their dogs while doing force fetch program. I see nothing wrong against doing just that if your pup has no serious retrieving faults. It is best to do the force fetching the right way. To have patients and not get upset over it. Every dog is different and there can be NO time table made. If you never force fetched a dog it might be better to have a good pro do it. But I force fetched my first dog at 18 years old and had very little instruction. It is not that hard with the right dog. You know the ones always shown on DVD's . Problem is knowing how much pressure and timing to shut the pressure off. I have seen some dogs that anyone could ff and others that it takes someone with much experience.

I am in the position to tell you send it to a pro only because I force fetch for a living ::lol:: I would be a fool to tell you to do this your self , right ?

Your friend can not be further from the truth. At least in my case , I do not rush through training to get to the next dog when I have that dog in hand. There is no point to rush through a job and then have the telephone ring telling you there is a problem with the dog retrieving ? Granted things can crop up that are not suspected. The only reason to get through ff fast is to get to the next set of drills . The more the dog can do for owner the happier they are . The happier they are they are more likely they will return and also more likely to send more work to the pro by telling friends they are happy. But rushing through to get to the next dog is Total Non seance.

Maybe you fixed your problem in part all ready in your statement of OP. But I doubt I would send said pup for a cripple on water till that is resolved on land or viewed outside a hunting situation. You do not need a future duck dog scared of cripples on water of all places. Get some live birds to work with.

If you were never going to hunt test and never going to teach your dog hand signals. Teaching hold , maybe just enough for you and your dog.There are lots of good retrievers that never were force fetched. My self I have NEVER owned a retriever of my own that was NOT force fetched . I recommend force fetch due to it is the foundation of all retriever training that follows.

James
James Seibel
hunter
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:37 am


Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:49 am

crackerd wrote:
xxDuckWildxx wrote:The first duck was shot right at LST and I watched the dog mark it. I didn't send the dog out of respect for the hunters trying to work more ducks. About 5 mins later, I lined the pup up for the retrieve. I sent him and he went about 5 yards and turned around and came back. I sent him again same result. ... My question is how concerned should I be and how do I fix this???


Unless the dog could still see the duck after first light, by holding off on sending it, you essentially turned a mark into a blind retrieve. That's not a gimme on water like other "memory retrieves" on land. No matter how many ducks you've "exposed" the dog to, you might want to think about advanced training for retrievers which includes water blinds instead of getting livid at the dog.
MG

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This,.. and-
crackerd wrote:
xxDuckWildxx wrote:Well, it was his first duck hunt. He did well on doves this year without ever being exposed to them. I knew he would not be a "pro" on his first time out for ducks. My concerns really arose when I expected his prey drive to kick in and instead he hightailed it the other direction. As for training, I have limited resources (access to birds, areas to shoot live birds in training, training ponds, helpers, etc). I've been using Dokken's hunting retriever as a basis for my training and I've held off on the blind retrieve work based on the book. Dokken's say wait until after their first hunting season to start that training. I'm starting to feel like that was a mistake


It's only a mistake if you ask or command the dog to do something it hasn't the skillset for taking on. "Prey drive" isn't a consideration in this, it's all about what the dog's been trained (or not trained) to do. And training water blind retrieves is a serious undertaking, a hell*va lot more investment in training than "wear gloves" or "keep your scent off the duck." The good news is, training for blinds, all the resources you need are a little piece of water and commitment of your time.
MG

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That
Hey I'm w/ M.G..

It's apparent there's been very little blind work done, and the fundamentals that lead up to blinds. Also seems to be a minor "dis-connect" between freshly killed birds and what your dogs' "job" is, even if he didn't mark a fall.

Your dog doesn't have the skill set yet to be sent out into oblivion and keep going until you stop him. You also need to establish to the dog the "understanding" that if you SEND him somewhere,..there's something there...that he needs to pick up. And don't let him leave the AOF until he does.
Swampbilly1980- I got a feeva',..and the only cure is more Mergansers and face paint.
User avatar
swampbilly 1980
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 9136
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Gloucester,Va.

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Ducaholic » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:33 am

dogyak wrote:
Ducaholic wrote:I'm no expert by any means but my young dog did something similar this teal season. First duck down she marked fine. Sent her and when she got there she danced and barked around the downed bird. I brought her back and had her heel and follow me to the bird. Took it and put it in her mouth and had her heel and come back to the blind with the bird in her mouth. Afterwards she retrieved a hand full of birds without a problem.

My next task will be to work with her on a crippled duck. I noticed that she would not readily pick up a teal that was on his last gasp of life and still moving head bobbing etc; I know I'm going to have to retrive a cripple and have here deal with the live bird before she will understand that's her job.

Can't wait for hunting season to begin to see how everything plays out. Live and learn!

I really don't understand why you guys want to wait for hunting season for the dog to learn how to deal with live cripples or live birds for that matter . Then you guys get ticked off when the dog blinks it in the field . It's called training , go to the area feed stores , you can find pigeons , quails , and even ducks for that matter . You build the confidence of the dog first , but instead you are setting them up for failure .




As I said previously we have already conquered one obstacle which was a freshly killed bird. She responded just the way I thought she would afterwards. I will try and find a live bird to train with if possible but if I can't I'll do what I need to do with a cripple even if it's after the hunt. I won't set her up to fail and I don't plan on getting ticked at a started dog in her first hunting season.
Ducaholic
hunter
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:33 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby GarDuck » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:52 am

Heres the deal make it happen everyone on this forum should in my opinion expose theyre dog to at minumum a live pigeon. If you can afford to spend time on a forum you can afford a free to 8 dollar pigeon. Not only will the dog learn a great deal you will have a blast cheering and encouraging your pup to chase and capture the bird. Also your dog will think you are the greatest person ever. We can all agree on very little but most if not all reasonable training programs expose retrievers to live birds.
GarDuck
hunter
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby dogyak » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:23 am

GarDuck wrote:Heres the deal make it happen everyone on this forum should in my opinion expose theyre dog to at minumum a live pigeon. If you can afford to spend time on a forum you can afford a free to 8 dollar pigeon. Not only will the dog learn a great deal you will have a blast cheering and encouraging your pup to chase and capture the bird. Also your dog will think you are the greatest person ever. We can all agree on very little but most if not all reasonable training programs expose retrievers to live birds.

:thumbsup: as I've been saying . All pro's will tell you that the one key to dog training besides OB is birds-live birds .
dogyak
hunter
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:18 pm
Location: FL

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Ducaholic » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:07 pm

As planned I caught the first winged bird shot this season. First thing I did was put the live bird in my 18 month old retrievers mouth and made her hold it. I then turned the swimming bird loose gave it a head start and then sent the pup in hot pursuit. She failed to make connection. Repeated first step and then set the bird loose again. My girl pounced on it and made the retrieve.

Few minutes later two teal came in. One was a cripple that sailed and hit the water swimming at 75 yards. Perfect mark and retrieve.

My point to this is if a dog has drive and the will to hunt as most top bloodlines do getting thru the live bird sequence is just a matter of patience and opportunity.

Granted if you can introduce a pup to live birds sooner that's a plus but not totally necessary in every case. Every dog is different and so are the people who call themselves their master.
Ducaholic
hunter
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:33 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby bigrick_2u » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:36 pm

Anyone else think 15 months is awful late for a dog to go on it's first hunt?
"If you have totals of ducks you've killed, you don't get it."
bigrick_2u
hunter
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:39 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby xxDuckWildxx » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:39 pm

If the dog is born late summer like mine was, what other choice do you have?
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical"-Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
xxDuckWildxx
hunter
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby bigrick_2u » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:04 pm

I guess I didn't think that through. True.
"If you have totals of ducks you've killed, you don't get it."
bigrick_2u
hunter
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:39 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby MoBrad » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:23 am

I had a, sort of, similar situation with my dog on her second or third hunt ever. We were hunting a dry field, dropped some birds, but one of them wasn't dead, but since it was a dry field, obviously, it couldn't dive on her. She goes out to get the still alive duck and got a surprise. When she went to grab it, it turned around and smacked her right on the nose with its beak. She stopped looked over at us like, "Did you see what that thing just did to me!?!?!" Of course, we were all cracking up at her reaction, and I hollered "FETCH IT UP!" she had been force fetch trained and had plenty of live birds in training, but it still shocked her. She literally tackled that duck and brought it right back kicking and flailing around. Needless to say she was showered with attagirls and good jobs by all 4 of us when she got back! Now it doesnt matter what the bird does, Breeze will knock em out!

You get the dog live birds to work with, and force fetch trained, and so many of these problems will iron themselves out.
MoBrad
hunter
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:08 am

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby xxDuckWildxx » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:36 am

Yeah, my dog has turned out to be a great upland dog this season. He has brought back every bird I've shot with enthusiasm, even still lively pheasants and chukars. It must be something about the water and birds that intimidates him. I am in agreement with those that said he needs to be force-fetched however, because the other day training with my retriever club for the first time he blinked 2 of the 3 "not-so-fresh" previously frozen ducks we were using. I can hardly blame him for wanting to pick those things up but I can't let him pick and choose what he will retrieve. It's just a shame because he has such a nice, enthusiastic retrieve to hand on fresh birds on land, or bumpers land or water.
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical"-Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
xxDuckWildxx
hunter
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Dakota Creek » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:41 am

bigrick_2u wrote:Anyone else think 15 months is awful late for a dog to go on it's first hunt?


Depends when the dog is born, where you live and how many seasons are available (waterfowl, dove, pheasant, etc)
GMHR-III Dakota Creek's Royal Navigator MH (AKC & CKC)
MHR Pine Acre's Dakota Sand Creek SH WCI
Dakota Creek's Royal Gem
Dakota Creek's Long Shot
Dakota Creek's Wreaking Havoc
Dakota Creek
hunter
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:39 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Dakota Creek » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:50 am

xxDuckWildxx wrote:It must be something about the water and birds that intimidates him.


As others have said ... He NEEDS to be trained with birds ON water. Retrieves on land are one thing ... As you are discovering water retrieves are a whole other issue.

So many think that these dogs are automatic retrieving machines. Granted some of this retrieving talent is inbred BUT when you start into advancing your dog's training they need exposure to different environments, different objects to retrieve - bumpers vs pigeons vs ducks vs doves vs geese - and different scenarios to do the work - land vs water.

FF will help with some of this but proper exposure (training) to what you will be asking your dog to do BEFORE you go hunting willm make you happier and your dog a whole lot more confident when being asked to do something while you are hunting.
GMHR-III Dakota Creek's Royal Navigator MH (AKC & CKC)
MHR Pine Acre's Dakota Sand Creek SH WCI
Dakota Creek's Royal Gem
Dakota Creek's Long Shot
Dakota Creek's Wreaking Havoc
Dakota Creek
hunter
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:39 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby xxDuckWildxx » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:11 pm

Just wanted to give everyone an update....I've taken Murphy out with me every duck hunt this season. Had several unsuccessful hunts (unsuccessful attempts to retrieve birds). Took him out the week before Christmas and we shot a flock of 4 ducks on the river at first light. Something snapped in the dog and he retrieved every one of those birds, in moving water no less! We called in and shot a pair of geese later in the morning and retrieved both like a champ. Another single duck came in and was shot and he retrieved it, no problem. 7 birds retrieved that day. Since then, he's retrieved every bird we've shot over him, a total of 5 ducks and 6 geese, including one lively crippled goose which he had to chase as it dove multiple times. I wish I could tell you what finally clicked with him, but I'm sure glad he's come around. I appreciate all the help you guys have given me. Like some of you said, I never let him truly fail on any duck hunt. If I retrieved the bird I'd always throw it for him and praise him up when he retrieved it. Good stuff! Thanks! :thumbsup:
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical"-Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
xxDuckWildxx
hunter
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Cupped-n-Committed » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:27 am

Glad to see its starting to work out.

I have a 6 month old and I drag geese with a string around their neck after hunting. The dog goes the first time from being scared of that big bird to trying to kill it in a minute. It really builds the animal instinct to hunt and gets their nose all full of that smell. Dead birds make good trainers before you clean them. I used to keep a merganser frozen for this also. There is nothing like the real thing. I liked to use the first cripple they come onto also. Stay behind them and keep saying "Go get 'em" or "Fetch 'em" every time they ease up because the bird flails their wings. It just build the fire for hunting in the dog. :smile:
"If you can't have fun doing it, it ain't worth doing, or you're just doing it wrong."

River hunting in my Wilderness Systems Kayaks; Commander 120 and Ride 135
My Blog archeryrob.wordpress.com Confessions of a fisherman, hunter and tinkerer
User avatar
Cupped-n-Committed
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 2797
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:48 pm
Location: Fairplay, MD

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:47 pm

crackerd wrote:
xxDuckWildxx wrote:The first duck was shot right at LST and I watched the dog mark it. I didn't send the dog out of respect for the hunters trying to work more ducks. About 5 mins later, I lined the pup up for the retrieve. I sent him and he went about 5 yards and turned around and came back. I sent him again same result. ... My question is how concerned should I be and how do I fix this???


Unless the dog could still see the duck after first light, by holding off on sending it, you essentially turned a mark into a blind retrieve. That's not a gimme on water like other "memory retrieves" on land. No matter how many ducks you've "exposed" the dog to, you might want to think about advanced training for retrievers which includes water blinds instead of getting livid at the dog. Only problem is, fall - and ducking season - ain't the time to start in on it.

MG

I'll add that the dogs first hunt should be about making it a success and setting him up for a lifetime of success in the field. I never shoot when I take a pup of mine on his first hunt, I always have competent shooters that will drop them in the open until the dog has things figured out. Sacrificing one hunt for the success of the dog is a small price to pay for a dog's lifetime of retrieving...
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
User avatar
Indaswamp
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 58806
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Re: Dog afraid of ducks?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:52 pm

bigrick_2u wrote:Anyone else think 15 months is awful late for a dog to go on it's first hunt?

...No...
Totally depends on the training the dog has had up to that point.
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
User avatar
Indaswamp
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 58806
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Previous

Return to Hunting Dog Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Duckdon, migr82az and 12 guests