Great Help Needed!

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Great Help Needed!

Postby Einstein » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:46 pm

So here I am. I need some help and I need it bad. I have an 8 month old yellow, named Trigger. He has great pedigree and parents are awesome. When I first bought Trigger at round 7 weeks I also purchased "Fowl Dawgs". From the time I got him we did some fun bumpers, small obedience (sit, here, heel, kennel). Trigger did amazing. I would only throw 3-4 bumpers at a time, would retrieve them all, 50 yards, water, it didn't matter, he was all over it. I quite literally thought he would be the most amazing duck dog to ever walk :rolleyes: At around 6 months I started Fowl Dawgs, and did basic obedience to a "T" and Trigger was doing awesome. He would love to take a break from time to time and get some bumpers. I started hold and he did well, started FF and then the wheels fell off. He did ok after some time. I had a really insane work schedule that kept me from working with him for about 2 weeks, (cardinal sin I know) and I have just been trying to get him back into the vibe by going with him and doing some fun bumpers. Trigger quite literally will not retrieve anything. It's like he's never seen a bumper. He'll heel and sit with the best of them, but I throw the bumper, release him, and he'll get to the bumper and sniff it, run back, and look at me like an idiot. At first I thought ah well, just in a bad mood today. It's been about a week and he literally will not return a single bumper. He has absolutely zero interest in it. He honestly couldn't care less. He loves me and wants to please me I know, he just won't retrieve. From the first day I had him he would go like an absolute mad man on crack after a bumper, now he just don't give a crap. I don't want to do anything drastic and turn him off forever, so I'm looking to you experts for help. Please help me out. Thanks!
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby i_willie12 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:02 pm

So what happened in the FF procees??? Something happened there that made him not like bumpers!

Get the dog on some birds in training!!! AND NOW!!!!
"Some people pride themselves on how far they can shoot ducks others pride themselves on how close they can get them. I'm an other!!! "
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby Spry Yellowdog » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:21 pm

I agree most bird dog problems are caused from lack of birds and cured with birds .
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby Einstein » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:25 pm

FF began with ear pinch and then progressed to collar, however within reason. I honestly feel he associates bumper with pain. Instead of grabbing bumper, pain goes away. By birds do you mean let him go hunting with me and retrieve a few? Or pigeons?
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby labman63 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:15 pm

Bring him over and we'll see what is going on with him. Hard to tell over the internet. I see you are in the Piedmont so you must be somewhat close. I'm in Semora up by Hyco lake.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby CatSquirrel » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:39 pm

Eliminate the physical first. I know you started forcing him, but I want to make sure you're aware that force work is generally not done until all of the adult teeth are in.

I would also check his mouth and make sure nothing is wrong. He may have caught a stick in his mouth or something. I once had a puppy that totally shut down from a broken tooth. Luckily, it was a baby tooth that the vet pulled and it worked out fine.

If he checks out fine, I'd try to get with Dave this weekend. It's a lot easier to evaluate a dog in person than over the Net.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby dogyak » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:27 pm

labman63 wrote:Bring him over and we'll see what is going on with him. Hard to tell over the internet. I see you are in the Piedmont so you must be somewhat close. I'm in Semora up by Hyco lake.
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This above as soon as possible . 2 weeks for FF is a rush job for one IMHO .
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby Einstein » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:38 pm

You're the man Dave. I'll have to really check my schedule and let you know ASAP. Thanks for the offer.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:47 am

Einstein wrote:You're the man Dave. I'll have to really check my schedule and let you know ASAP. Thanks for the offer.

Make the time!
Just doesn't get any better than this-
labman63 wrote:Bring him over and we'll see what is going on with him. Hard to tell over the internet. I see you are in the Piedmont so you must be somewhat close. I'm in Semora up by Hyco lake.
Dave
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Labmans' a good man.


Einstein wrote:Trigger quite literally will not retrieve anything. It's like he's never seen a bumper.

Dog may have "forgotten" what his job is.
Something may have gone arry in FF'.

Go see Dave!


Sometimes you can do things that spark some interest back, or jog the dogs' memory - the water in N.C. shouldn't be too chilly yet for pup to enjoy a short water mark, even though there's no interest on land, that is, if he has picked up marks in water before.
If ya' toss a mark too far, you might wind up having to get it yourself though :wink:
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Something to consider.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby Einstein » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:25 am

He does do excellent still in the water.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:33 am

Einstein wrote:He does do excellent still in the water.

Think on this-
Do you believe that your dog has seen a ton more water marks than he has on land? An imbalance of land marks vs. water marks could be part of the ailment.
Get stuff straight on land first, then transition to water.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby brsutton86 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:04 am

Labman if I ever send my dog to a trainer he's comin your way. Never seen someone try and help out others on the side like you do. Your character shows. From my little experiences sounds like you rushed through FF. I spent a week just on hold. Need that good foundation on hold before you move on. Spent 7-8 weeks total but took it slow since it was my first time FF. Don't start out with a bumper in FF either. You want to use a ff block or paint roller or anything but a bumper. After you've went through it and he's picked it up well transition to bumper. They won't lose there inthusiasm with the bimper. That's the way my program explained it to me anyway and my dog did great. Also I'm assuming your dog was already CC before FF. If not and you cleaned it up with a collar that could be the issue.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby ibedamn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:35 am

labman63 wrote:Bring him over and we'll see what is going on with him. Hard to tell over the internet. I see you are in the Piedmont so you must be somewhat close. I'm in Semora up by Hyco lake.
Dave
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That is a mighty nice offer...and the one that will fix your problem.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby labman63 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:57 pm

Thanks for the nice comments. I just like to see dogs reach their full potiential and help a brother out. (Sometimes it gets me invited to good duck huntin spots. hint hint)
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby James Seibel » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:30 am

Ok , this is something I have seen before. What is the fix? So you went to water and pup fetched bumper . That is a great thing. But does not mean their is a imbalance in water / land work. Though it could be. What I believe it means is the dog Blames the bumper for the discomfort on Land ! There is a broken wire in the dogs brain and that wire needs reconnected.

How do we this ? We finish the force fetch program that you started . If the dog was force fetched it would retrieve the bumper on land for you . Lets take the worse dog we can find ? I think for this topic I will choose a non retrieving breed of dog that never loved a bumper at any time in life.

Water would be NO place I could find out if the dog would fetch due to this non retriever dislikes water and never was in water ! Ok then what ? That dog is NOT force fetched till it picks up bumper on land .

YOUR dog is NOT force fetched yet ! On RTF it was asked when is a dog force fetched . Some said after force to the pile . My self I say force fetch is complete when dog retrieves the bird you want picked up. It could be at the conclusion your dog picks up a bumper though , this is like splitting hairs ?

So I conclude your dog loves water and loves to fetch on water and therefore remembers this is fun place where no pressure has been applied with a bumper.

This I do believe , you can force fetch some dogs with a bumper and the outcome will be ok. You can force fetch some dogs with a bumper and you could have poor attitude problems. Who is to say what a dog really thinks ? Every dog is different . But a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure . Reason I use a large dumbbell in my force fetch process and not a bumper. Plus a Large dumbbell is Easy for dog to hold and Easy for them to pick up off the ground and or table during ff process.

Bottom line you should start all over from scratch one and review what the dog learned and what you did ! When I go through ff with a dog , I generally start from square one each and every day and proceed to where I am today. Unless I might be at walking fetch stage , i will by pass that step.

Not going to try and tell you or anyone how to force fetch a dog . Just say this I do NOT use paint rollers for reasons that a dog can chomp on them. And bad habits can start with this paint roller with No# such and such a dog. Not to say paint roller will be find with 10 other dogs.

I have used many different tools. I choose a large plastic dumbbell due to I can leave it in the rain , I have used same dumbbell with many many dogs and is not destroyed , I can throw it and it will not break.It is easy to pick up over a bumper during ff. It IS NOT any tool I will ever ever use again with a dog. Other words there is NO association of a dumbbell ,( discomfort) with a dummy. Though Sooner or Later you must transition to a bumper.

Let me say though Hillmann method is based on using a bumper (happy bumpers ) NO ear pinch but association leaning then finish with a collar . So this system might be best for the one dog owner in the ff process.

A simple step I may do with many dogs coming out of force fetch is NOT to throw the bumper for dog , but have the dog hold the bumper in their mouth and do many recalls to me working back in distance. This is EASY for a dog grounded in hold command and here all the dog must do is come to me with the bumper. At a distance this can be fun most dogs and there fore they learn to love the bumper again. In the case of YOUR dog. This could take one lesson or a few over few days . Then take the bumper from dog at point and give happy bumper. I have also taken dogs just like you have and worked them in water for few days to cheer them up again. And get them as far from force fetch in their mind as I can and make this all fun. Every Dog is different and there is no one cure fix all so to say.

When I force fetch dogs I do NOT use fun bumpers and generally do not give marks till done. I use lite pressure and mostly done in 2 or 3 weeks. But what is DONE ? force to the pile , picking up bumper on command , casting to a pile ( go as sent ) picking up a duck ? I consider dog is force fetched when I can do simple walking fetch or casting drills and dog is near 100% on this and when I throw a bumper. Then they need to pick up a duck or else they are still not retrieving what I want ? right ?

Bottom line I think start over review you work and pick up where the problem is and Finish what you though is NOT finished.

And you should take labman up on his offer ( I also congratulate Labman for his kine offer to help you one on one )
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby GarDuck » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:06 am

Agree do not force dogs on bumpers or birds until the dog is fully through FF in my opinion also 2 weeks with the first dog that youve FF is probably too quick.
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby wanapasaki » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:13 am

Yikes, glad I never FF. Have been told its necessary but have seen dogs turn out just like yours. Just get him on some crippled lives
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Re: Great Help Needed!

Postby Einstein » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:23 pm

So I'll give you guys an update. This weekend I took trigger out to the same results of, he wouldn't retrieve. SO, I took a paintroller, sprinkled some duck scent on it, and he retrieved it every time, back to heel like a champ. So I eventually replaced the roller with a bumper with scent, and he did the same, everytime. I even took him out on the boat, and he continued to retrieve like the old days. I believe whole heartedly that he just needed to spark the fun in retrieving again. He has done well on continuous days. It is quite evident after some time that he basically associated the bumper with pain. I appreciate all the help. Dave, I can say that if I do ever need professional help, you'll be the first one to get it. I greatly appreciate your offer, and if I would have had a little more time, I would have taken you up on it.
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