Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:54 am

Labs wrote:If you don't test your DD in the "program", you no longer have a DD....you simply have a wirehair...


You're wrong....don't really know how else to say it. Why not do some research about the topic you're posting on rather than spreading more misinformation. There's enough of that around about this breed.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:55 am

OmegaRed wrote:If you don't test in VDD, you can't breed. Still a DD, just not breedable as one.


:thumbsup:
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:06 am

:huh: :huh: How the Hell can a DD be anything but a DD? Omega and Mojo are right, they just can't be bred unless they've been tested. If they are bred and not tested, pups are GWP.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:38 am

Griffdom wrote:
Minneguy wrote:So griff, it seems like the griff has gotten bred like the golden retriever, where it is hard to find a good field bred dog. It also seems like the griff is a little less energetic and a slightly larger dog overall, would you say this is true?


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I don't think it is quite that bad, but you do want to do some research. The griff is actually the smallest of the wirehaire versatiles. The standard calls for between about 45-60 I believe. The field griff is smaller than your show griff on average.

Well that's good to hear! I hate what has happened to The golden. I love them, but refuse to buy from a backyard breeder who doesn't give a rip about health or quality. So ya nearly impossible to find one. I'm glad the griff isn't like that. I had no idea they were smaller.... That is interesting! I need more research on them


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:02 am

I have another question guys, since I do so much predator hunting in the winter , how could I include my dog? I don't want to use any dog I get as a bait dog or a decoy dog though so keep that in mind. I hate the idea of it getting tore up.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:46 am

DD,s retireve fox in Germany. Keep is steady at your side then send it for the retrieve. Don't know why you'd want to
with all the rabies, mange, and distemper fox carry.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:58 am

That's a very valid point! I was thinking coyotes , because I don't hunt fox much. There aren't many around and they aren't as damaging around here as the coyotes. I was also thinking more along the lines of tracking them before or after the shot. But then again, I don't need my hunting buddy to get flees or mange....


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Labs » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:42 pm

gonehuntin' wrote::huh: :huh: How the Hell can a DD be anything but a DD? Omega and Mojo are right, they just can't be bred unless they've been tested. If they are bred and not tested, pups are GWP.


Sooo....what do you call a pup that doesn't pass the VJP? It didn't live up to the standard of the DD program...do you still call it a DD, GWP, or just a DD that you can't breed in the DD program...seems to me, that if it didn't meet the standard, its a GWP...same could be said for a pup that isn't tested, hence my reasoning for posting what I posted...And sorry for the the tangent, OP...just want to be clear where the line is drawn in the nomenclature...
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:55 am

Labs wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote::huh: :huh: How the Hell can a DD be anything but a DD? Omega and Mojo are right, they just can't be bred unless they've been tested. If they are bred and not tested, pups are GWP.


Sooo....what do you call a pup that doesn't pass the VJP? It didn't live up to the standard of the DD program...do you still call it a DD, GWP, or just a DD that you can't breed in the DD program...seems to me, that if it didn't meet the standard, its a GWP...same could be said for a pup that isn't tested, hence my reasoning for posting what I posted...And sorry for the the tangent, OP...just want to be clear where the line is drawn in the nomenclature...


It's called a DD that didn't pass the VJP.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:04 am

A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.

Regardless of organization (VDD, AKC, etc.), a pup born from a pairing approved by the governing body for that breed is what it is. A DD pup born from a litter meeting VDD-GNA standards/approval is a DD. A lab or GWP bred from a litter meeting AKC standards is a lab or GWP.

The testing program associated with the DD is merely used to ensure that certain hunting standards are maintained within the breed. It's not used to certify what breed the dog is.

Testing (or not) does not change what breed a certain dog is. A non tested DD is still a DD. Similarly, you couldn't have your lab pass the VDD-GNA testing program and suddenly call it a DD.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Labs » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:13 am

mojo wrote:A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.


Ok...I'm with ya....but, then I see this post...

gonehuntin wrote:How the Hell can a DD be anything but a DD? Omega and Mojo are right, they just can't be bred unless they've been tested. If they are bred and not tested, pups are GWP


If DD is a dog breed, but two DD that are untested are bred and yield GWP pups, how is this still a breed? Seems to me it would be equating the American Lab as a different breed than the British Lab...Just trying to learn, but I think I'm more confused now...
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Labs » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:16 am

mojo wrote:A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.

The testing program associated with the DD is merely used to ensure that certain hunting standards are maintained within the breed. It's not used to certify what breed the dog is.

Testing (or not) does not change what breed a certain dog is. A non tested DD is still a DD. Similarly, you couldn't have your lab pass the VDD-GNA testing program and suddenly call it a DD.


Sounds to me that the testing IS used to certify what breed the dog is....or at least it's used to certify the breed of the puppies, no?
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:33 am

Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.


Ok...I'm with ya....but, then I see this post...

gonehuntin wrote:How the Hell can a DD be anything but a DD? Omega and Mojo are right, they just can't be bred unless they've been tested. If they are bred and not tested, pups are GWP


If DD is a dog breed, but two DD that are untested are bred and yield GWP pups, how is this still a breed? Seems to me it would be equating the American Lab as a different breed than the British Lab...Just trying to learn, but I think I'm more confused now...



In the example we are using. Two registered DD's that have not passed required tests would not be able to breed their dogs and register them under VDD/GNA (DD american orginization). If they chose to breed the dogs, they would not be able to use the breed name DD for their dogs. Obviously, the VDD highly frowns upon outside breeding, because they are using the breed tests in order to better the breed. This is the difference between a GWP and DD.

From the VDD/GNA website:
http://www.vdd-gna.org/about-gna/

To insure the continued quest for improvement of performance, regulations were established which require that all VDD Drahthaars used for breeding must first meet certain field performance standards. This evaluation of performance is conducted at special field tests designed to demonstrate inherited qualities.

The testing program of Group North America adheres to all VDD and JGHV Test Regulations. To evaluate hunting ability, VDD/GNA sponsors Spring Natural Ability Tests (VJP), Fall Breed Tests (HZP), Fall Utility Tests (VGP), and Coat and Conformation evaluations (Breed Shows). For the purpose of breeding hunting dogs that are valued highly for versatility, the breed tests evaluate inherited ability, rather than establishing the superiority of one dog over another.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:41 am

Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.

The testing program associated with the DD is merely used to ensure that certain hunting standards are maintained within the breed. It's not used to certify what breed the dog is.

Testing (or not) does not change what breed a certain dog is. A non tested DD is still a DD. Similarly, you couldn't have your lab pass the VDD-GNA testing program and suddenly call it a DD.


Sounds to me that the testing IS used to certify what breed the dog is....or at least it's used to certify the breed of the puppies, no?



Kind of like a square can be a rectangle, but a rectangle can't be a square. If a dog is born by 2 registered DD parents, it's a DD regardless of whether it's tested or not. But a dog cannot breed and yield a dog that bears the breed name DD without the required tests.

I think we are making progress :thumbsup: Believe me, it's all very cryptic. And this is coming from someone who has put considerable time learning before I bought a pup. The pedigrees and test forms in German don't help
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:49 am

Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.

The testing program associated with the DD is merely used to ensure that certain hunting standards are maintained within the breed. It's not used to certify what breed the dog is.

Testing (or not) does not change what breed a certain dog is. A non tested DD is still a DD. Similarly, you couldn't have your lab pass the VDD-GNA testing program and suddenly call it a DD.


Sounds to me that the testing IS used to certify what breed the dog is....or at least it's used to certify the breed of the puppies, no?


Under your reasoning, a Lab wouldn't be a Lab unless it was tested an passed at least an AKC Derby.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Labs » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:59 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:A DD is not a breeding/testing program, it's a dog breed.

The testing program associated with the DD is merely used to ensure that certain hunting standards are maintained within the breed. It's not used to certify what breed the dog is.

Testing (or not) does not change what breed a certain dog is. A non tested DD is still a DD. Similarly, you couldn't have your lab pass the VDD-GNA testing program and suddenly call it a DD.


Sounds to me that the testing IS used to certify what breed the dog is....or at least it's used to certify the breed of the puppies, no?


Under your reasoning, a Lab wouldn't be a Lab unless it was tested an passed at least an AKC Derby.


Not true at all....what you said earlier..."an untested DD, if bred, would yield GWP's"....is that not what you wrote? Two labs, that are bred, and untested, do not yield...some other breed...they yield labs...

So, please, don't get all hoity toity...

Omega, I think has probably done the best job explaining the cryptic nature of the program....it certainly isn't explained on the website...and I'm not even interested in the breed, but I find program interesting because it sounds like DD owners want to get the most out of the breed they chose to own, and I can't fault an dog owner in that, even if the semantics seem sketchy on the surface...
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:22 am

Look at it this way. You have 2 AKC labs. You breed them. You have lab puppies as defined by the AKC (and any organization that recognizes AKC registries).

You take 2 labs, not registered in any organization, and breed them, what do you get? What do you call them? How can you confirm they, or their parents, or grandparents, are all labs, and only have lab bloodline in them? Sure, they may look like labs, but the answer that is you don't really know.

That's why we turn to registries and organizations to help define the breed....and those organizations track bloodlines (and performance standards in the case of the DD) to ensure that a litter is indeed what someone is calling it.

The confusion between the DD vs. GWP that you're having is because the AKC recognizes the VDD-GNA registry and will accept dogs bred under their standards as a GWP.

Any owner of a DD could register their dog in the AKC as a GWP....that's why gonehuntin said you could breed untested DDs and get a GWP.

You cannot, however, register an AKC dog in the VDD. I couldn't buy an AKC GWP, run it in the tests, and get it registered at as a DD. That illustrates why the testing does not define the breed, it merely defines what dogs within the registry, can breed.
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Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:53 pm

If I get a draht it will get tested, simply for the fun of it and to see how it does. I will do Vjp and hzp for sure. Will I go on to vgp? Probably not because I am not interested in breeding. If I was, you bet! It's no different than why I never took my labs to field trials, thy are trained for it but they don't go to the tests because I'm not interested in breeding. I have no problem testing the draht if that is required.
The reason I want a draht and not a gwp, is simply because I agree with their strict breeding protocol. Nothing against any breeders, but I would like to see more breeds be monitored and not bred by back yard breeders looking to make a quick buck. I do not care about the registration exclusivity, just the breeding principle.
Plus them jokers can hunt!

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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:34 pm

Labs wrote:

So, please, don't get all hoity toity...



You're the one with no understanding of the program posting false and misleading information, not me. Why in the world would you mislead someone when you don't know what you're talking about? :huh: :help:
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:00 pm

Going out tomorrow morning, supposed to be -17. Heck if I had a dog, id still leave it home on a day like that... Lab Chessie, drathaar, no matter what breed that is too dang cold!


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:19 pm

Minneguy wrote:So griff, it seems like the griff has gotten bred like the golden retriever, where it is hard to find a good field bred dog. It also seems like the griff is a little less energetic and a slightly larger dog overall, would you say this is true?


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If your curious about breeders to look into PM. I'm sure that jarbo would have a few to look at too.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:22 pm

OmegaRed wrote:
Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of that post....

First, many breeders certainly encourage you to test their pups (it is after all, why the breed is what it is), but I never talked to any breeder that required it. My breeder was more interested in pups going to good hunting homes than having his pups tested.

Secondly, a DD (or any versatile breed like a PP, Griff, etc.) is NOT twice the work of another dog. Certainly you will be training for both retrieve and pointing (and potentially tracking), but you should not assume it's the equivalent of training a FT setter and a FT lab....it's not.

DD's do not require the retriever work of a lab. They were not bred to be handled like a lab. They rely on their noses, not hand signals. I've FF my dog, and I did minimal casting work just to get him to start off in the direction I want for blind retrieves, but after that, there's no hand signals, no baseball, no whistles, etc.....their noses do it. You want that independence in the dog. They learn quickly, and remember it well, and their drive is such that it doesn't take much to get them into it.

They also don't require nearly the repetition of a retriever, and often get bored or lose interested with drill after drill after drill. Training my dog was not some uber intense, year long slog through tons of books, regiments, drills, etc. These dogs learn so quickly, and have great intuition, that a few hours a week did the trick.

FWIW, I'm a novice owner (grew up with labs, but never owned my own dog), and far from a die hard hunter. I work full time, and never had issues training or finding time for my dog. Personally, I would NEVER send any dog I own away for training....that's part of the fun, and part of the reason why I got the dog in the first place (to spend time afield together). Training made for a great bond between me and my dog, and we're both better for doing it together.

That said, as I had no experience with pointers (or FF), I did seek out help and worked with a trainer once a week for a few months, but it was nothing too intense. Pointer work was 1 day a week, 3 planted quail each time, for a few months. All you're teaching the dog is steadiness...the point comes with the breed.


If you don't test your DD in the "program", you no longer have a DD....you simply have a wirehair...


If you don't test in VDD, you can't breed. Still a DD, just not breedable as one.


Exactly, a DD I such by birthright. They just don't get the right to breed without the testing.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby boykinhntr » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:11 am

For ducks and pheasants it will be hard to beat a lab or boykin. I've been very impressed with the versatility of Noykins. I do not have one any longer but I will have another. They are extremely popular in Arkansas for dove and ducks. They are also excellent pheasant dogs.

I have also seen an increase of GWP/DD. One guy I know has a GWP that hunts ducks from Saskatchewan to Arkansas, pheasants, rabbits, dove, and tracks blood.

Lastly after owning several labs im convinced they can hunt anything as well.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:10 pm

Hmmmmm.........does the tone of that post sound familiar to anyone else? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:13 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:
The DD is a VERSATILE Hunting dog, it is NOT a gentlemans dog.



Obviously not. Guess I'll go sell mine. :beer:
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