Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:28 pm

Gone huntin you did well on those woodcocks! Do you ever bag any grouse?


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:54 pm

Minneguy wrote:Gone huntin you did well on those woodcocks! Do you ever bag any grouse?


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Yes, we get grouse too, but woodcock are really my favorite to hunt.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:56 pm

I gotcha, we unfortunately don't have many snipe or woodcock here anymore.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:16 am

Hey all! just an update. I went hunting to a local preserve with a new acquaintance and his Spinone Italiano. We had a blast! the dog moved slower through the field, but it was a tank in the thick cover. Very calm and gentle dog, even delivered a pheasant to his son without any trouble, poor kid had a shock when the thing took flight from his hand lol.
Are most Spinones like this? I didnt particularily love the breed like I have fallen for Labs and Drathaars, but it really was a good time and seemed like a great dog.
Id like to find someone with a munsterlander next and see what is up with them. I have heard that both will do good on geese.
Speaking of, I got out thursday morning for some late season geese, they would come in but not commit like I would have prefered. It was ungodly cold, 25 mph wind at 17 degrees + snow and sleet. ended up with 2/3 but I had to change tactics and pass shoot them a ltitle ways away from my dekes. they would circle, set their wings to check it out and take off.... Right into the path of my 11-87 haha. I coulda used a good dog to retrieve the one, it glided over 300 yards away and I had to run my butt off to get it. After finding it hiding by the edge of the woods and chasing it around, it decided to take a nap.
I really wanna get out after some late season ducks this weekend, or this next week before everything freezes up. Last week I got out and got 4 mallards on a lake south of me, had to kayak about 2 miles to the spot but it was worth it. Had pintails come through, and a small flock of redheads just out of range. being that it was so cold, I better make the right choice as far as a dog that can handle the cold. I would really hate to put a dog through that kind of hell. Based off that fact alone, If I go with a DD it will get a vest and all the cold gear I can get. If I get a lab, it may have to be a bigger bodied dog than I prefer to handle the cold weather.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:09 pm

Guys.... I need help choosing. today I went goose hunting till mid morning, then went and kicked some brush and cat tails for pheasants, got a grouse, then kicked some brush piles until I got 3 rabbits, and headed home. I am realizing that I like goose hunting more than duck, but I like duck hunting more than upland due to the higher number of ducks we have around here. I am still in such a tough place to chose one or the other. what do you guys think about getting either a lab or a draht and then after a while getting the other? The problem I can see with getting either one, is neither is best at everything. the Lab is a better duck dog, because it can handle the late season cold and do some awesome retrieves if trained properly. the draht is almost unmatched in its upland/ fur versatility. I think that having one of each would be the way to go, then instead of training the lab to be a mediocre pheasant dog I could train the draht to be a phenomenal pheasant dog and the lab could be my duck partner. Do you think I would be able to hunt geese with both? I do mostly field hunting with a little river hunting mixed in, and I would need to train the dog to hide in a goose blind of its own, but I would love to have a companion with me when I go after the honkers. I really feel that I would be doing one of the dogs a disservice because it would be expected to know how to field hunt geese, waterfowl over dekes, pheasants in the field, grouse in the poplars, rabbits in the brush and anything else I cared to chase. I know that both breeds can do all of those things, but my grandpa always taught me that when you have a tool designed for one purpose, it will perform perfectly every time. when you have a tool that can kinda do multiple things, some times it will just fall short.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:34 pm

You must not have bothered looking at the pics I posted. Take a gander at this gander and tell me a Draht can't retrieve a goose. Good rabbit dogs too.

This is a giant canada.







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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Jarbo03 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:19 pm

A DD will do everything you are looking for very well. I hunt with a griff, haven't seen a goose retrieve he couldn't handle. Best dog I've had for field hunting geese was a britt I owned years ago. Put the time in the dog, and it will do whatever you are asking of it.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:50 pm

I recommend you start with the DD or some other wirehaired v dog and get the lab if you think you still need it. For everything you hunt, if you start with a lab you'll likely still be wanting a DD.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:24 am

That is the plan guys, get the DD then the lab for ducks later. I figured that would be best because as you said a DD can retrieve geese and do the other things well enough till it get older then I can get my cold weather hunting buddy. I am just a little nervous about potentially owning three dogs, I want to ensure that I train them all to the best of my ability. What's it like training a draht? Since they don't like rote work, how do you teach them basic commands?


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:25 am

Gonehuntin, I enjoyed every pic you posted brother! Sincerely, the pics you posted are a big part of the reason I chose to go draht first.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:07 am

Minneguy wrote:That is the plan guys, get the DD then the lab for ducks later. I figured that would be best because as you said a DD can retrieve geese and do the other things well enough till it get older then I can get my cold weather hunting buddy. I am just a little nervous about potentially owning three dogs, I want to ensure that I train them all to the best of my ability. What's it like training a draht? Since they don't like rote work, how do you teach them basic commands?


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No worries. My guess is that you will find that you only need two dogs once you get the DD. How cold does it get where you live? There are people hunting in Alaska with DD and getting it done.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:15 am

Griffdom wrote:
Minneguy wrote:That is the plan guys, get the DD then the lab for ducks later. I figured that would be best because as you said a DD can retrieve geese and do the other things well enough till it get older then I can get my cold weather hunting buddy. I am just a little nervous about potentially owning three dogs, I want to ensure that I train them all to the best of my ability. What's it like training a draht? Since they don't like rote work, how do you teach them basic commands?


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No worries. My guess is that you will find that you only need two dogs once you get the DD. How cold does it get where you live? There are people hunting in Alaska with DD and getting it done.


Ya I don't understand the "get a lab later" part. Get a dog from a breeder that hunts cold weather. There are people in Canada and Alaska that hunt DD's in severe weather. Get a vest and don't worry about it. From everywhere I've read, they are at least on par with labs. Chessie's are pretty much agreed to be better with severe cold than both breeds.

And the whole "don't like role work" I think is a generalization. And most people training a dog to hunt aren't going to be subjecting a dog to that type of role work (think higher level field trials). It has nothing to do with basic commands or obedience.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby ohio mike » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:56 am

OmegaRed wrote:
Griffdom wrote:
Minneguy wrote:That is the plan guys, get the DD then the lab for ducks later. I figured that would be best because as you said a DD can retrieve geese and do the other things well enough till it get older then I can get my cold weather hunting buddy. I am just a little nervous about potentially owning three dogs, I want to ensure that I train them all to the best of my ability. What's it like training a draht? Since they don't like rote work, how do you teach them basic commands?




No worries. My guess is that you will find that you only need two dogs once you get the DD. How cold does it get where you live? There are people hunting in Alaska with DD and getting it done.


Ya I don't understand the "get a lab later" part. Get a dog from a breeder that hunts cold weather. There are people in Canada and Alaska that hunt DD's in severe weather. Get a vest and don't worry about it. From everywhere I've read, they are at least on par with labs. Chessie's are pretty much agreed to be better with severe cold than both breeds.

And the whole "don't like role work" I think is a generalization. And most people training a dog to hunt aren't going to be subjecting a dog to that type of role work (think higher level field trials). It has nothing to do with basic commands or obedience.

I think your a bit confused. A lab and a Chessie are more on par for cold water work. As far as field work the DD or Wirehair is capable of anything you want it to do. I've got both and if I had to chose it would be the Wirehair, He could/can do the same job my lab and Beagles do. BUT not quite as well,however the upland work is superior to the Lab and they both point.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:02 am

ohio mike wrote:
OmegaRed wrote:
Griffdom wrote:
Minneguy wrote:That is the plan guys, get the DD then the lab for ducks later. I figured that would be best because as you said a DD can retrieve geese and do the other things well enough till it get older then I can get my cold weather hunting buddy. I am just a little nervous about potentially owning three dogs, I want to ensure that I train them all to the best of my ability. What's it like training a draht? Since they don't like rote work, how do you teach them basic commands?




No worries. My guess is that you will find that you only need two dogs once you get the DD. How cold does it get where you live? There are people hunting in Alaska with DD and getting it done.


Ya I don't understand the "get a lab later" part. Get a dog from a breeder that hunts cold weather. There are people in Canada and Alaska that hunt DD's in severe weather. Get a vest and don't worry about it. From everywhere I've read, they are at least on par with labs. Chessie's are pretty much agreed to be better with severe cold than both breeds.

And the whole "don't like role work" I think is a generalization. And most people training a dog to hunt aren't going to be subjecting a dog to that type of role work (think higher level field trials). It has nothing to do with basic commands or obedience.

I think your a bit confused. A lab and a Chessie are more on par for cold water work. As far as field work the DD or Wirehair is capable of anything you want it to do. I've got both and if I had to chose it would be the Wirehair, He could/can do the same job my lab and Beagles do. BUT not quite as well,however the upland work is superior to the Lab and they both point.


Says who? I agree with the Chessie, not necessarily with the lab. I've seen a number of labs that can't take the cold, even when field hunting. I've rarely heard of DD's being cold sensitive.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:10 am

Minneguy - I just saw your post on VDogs. I think they provided plenty of examples
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby ohio mike » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:36 am

Says me,I've owned labs for 30 some years and been around a bunch of others. The best of both breeds perform pretty much the same in cold water giving the Chessie a slight edge. I've also seen both breeds that couldn't find their ass in the uplands.A Wirehair/DD can't handle what they can as far as cold water. Before you go off on the DD ,German Wirehair thing they are genetically the same but the DD is tested to a different standard whereas the Wire hair is tested NAVHDA and to a lesser extent AKC. I have a Wirehair two generations removed from Germany that has some VC titles in the last 3 generations so he's got the background. Hell of a all around dog I might add. Hates fur.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:14 am

ohio mike wrote:Says me,I've owned labs for 30 some years and been around a bunch of others. The best of both breeds perform pretty much the same in cold water giving the Chessie a slight edge. I've also seen both breeds that couldn't find their ass in the uplands. A Wirehair/DD can't handle what they can as far as cold water. Before you go off on the DD ,German Wirehair thing they are genetically the same but the DD is tested to a different standard whereas the Wire hair is tested NAVHDA and to a lesser extent AKC. I have a Wirehair two generations removed from Germany that has some VC titles in the last 3 generations so he's got the background. Hell of a all around dog I might add. Hates fur.


Once again, based on who's opinion? I'll just post this since it's covered over there.

http://www.versatiledogs.com/forum/view ... =5&t=17320
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby ohio mike » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:40 am

Thought I answered that. My opinion based on 30 plus years of personal experience and observation. Not internet knowledge which is often biased.Way to many who lurk there seem to think their way is the only way, and what they own is the only thing worth having. I've owned way over a hundred dogs most were/are gundogs. English and LLewellin Setters, Labs of all three colors, Walkers,Blueticks, Black and tans,beagles Shepards ,Huskys,a Mountain Cur,more then a couple of mutts, and lastly a German Wire Pointer. Currently only own 4 dogs. Never owned a Chessie but have hunted with a couple.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:01 am

ohio mike wrote:Thought I answered that. My opinion based on 30 plus years of personal experience and observation. Not internet knowledge which is often biased.Way to many who lurk there seem to think their way is the only way, and what they own is the only thing worth having. I've owned way over a hundred dogs most were/are gundogs. English and LLewellin Setters, Labs of all three colors, Walkers,Blueticks, Black and tans,beagles Shepards ,Huskys,a Mountain Cur,more then a couple of mutts, and lastly a German Wire Pointer. Currently only own 4 dogs. Never owned a Chessie but have hunted with a couple.


Not trying to be a jerk...but you seem to be saying one thing and doing another. It's your opinion that versatile's can't handle the cold. There are plenty of other people with differencing experiences countering your argument. Your GWP might not handle cold, but there are plenty of examples out there showing that they in fact do. I never said DD's were the only way, nor said anything about DD vs. GWP. Different argument's about different subjects.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:59 am

@griffdom
This mornings goose hunt before work was 10 degrees. Cold air today felt great, got a good sting on the face.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:03 am

@omega, the cold isn't the issue as is the cold water temp. Labs and Chesapeakes have better oily coats for the cold water. No denying it. Will a draht put itself through he'll? Absolutely, from everything I've heard they will kill themselves before they give up. In my experience a lab will give up when it needs to, but you don't have to worry about it killing itself. I've hunted over 10+ labs that have had varying coats an body types but the all had one thing in common, that oily coat!


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:08 am

Guys i am in no way denying that a draht can handle cold, I just wouldn't like to put my dog through that kind of hell. For dry field work, I would happily take a DD with on the coldest day. Vest up and let the draht have some fun. I want the drive , the versatility and quite honestly being able to hunt all dang day long with one dog is gonna be awesome. But tomorrow when my hunting buddies and I head out to the river to chase ducks, and the sheets of ice are coming by, I'm really glad it's my buddies Chessie that we have with. I would still bring my future draht, but I would make dang sure to have blankets or burlap or something to help it warm up between retrieves.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:12 am

Now that I've decided to catch the DD bug, I need to pick a breeder. Anybody from Minnesota have experience with a local breeder? I'm willing to drive up to a few states over if the price is right and the dog is the right one
Also, I need to pick my own puppy. I can't stand breeders picking for me, I would rather pick my own. I just feel like I can make a better pick based on personality than someone else can for me.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:47 am

First, for a breeder in Mn., look to Ned Sorley in the Twin Cities. Fabulous DD's.

Next on cold water I totally agree with Ohio Mike. There might be a few DD's that are as good as a lab in cold water, but you'd have to look for them. Cold WEATHER doesn't bother them a bit; they thrive in in much more than the heat. I base that on having trained hundred's of labs and using them in our guide service in Idaho. A DD is a good cold water dog, but not as good as the lab or chessie.

Same with rote work. I would rather try to put a male through the rote, the females tend or can get very sulky. But like Red says, obedience and simple handling are no problem.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Labs » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:51 am

Most, if not all, reputable DD breeders will require you to be on a waiting list and get involved in the draht training program. I understand your dilemma, and everyone is going to have opinions about the dogs they own...There are one main question that I have not seen answered in this thread....

Are you planning on training the dog yourself, or send it to a trainer? The answer to this question would tell me which way you should go....the DD is not for the novice trainer. If your going to send it out, go DD...if you are going to try to train it yourself...go Lab...simple as that...
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