Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:15 pm

Minneguy wrote:@griffdom
This mornings goose hunt before work was 10 degrees. Cold air today felt great, got a good sting on the face.


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Yea, that is pretty cold.

Minneguy wrote:@omega, the cold isn't the issue as is the cold water temp. Labs and Chesapeakes have better oily coats for the cold water. No denying it. Will a draht put itself through he'll? Absolutely, from everything I've heard they will kill themselves before they give up. In my experience a lab will give up when it needs to, but you don't have to worry about it killing itself. I've hunted over 10+ labs that have had varying coats an body types but the all had one thing in common, that oily coat!


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Minneguy wrote:Guys i am in no way denying that a draht can handle cold, I just wouldn't like to put my dog through that kind of hell. For dry field work, I would happily take a DD with on the coldest day. Vest up and let the draht have some fun. I want the drive , the versatility and quite honestly being able to hunt all dang day long with one dog is gonna be awesome. But tomorrow when my hunting buddies and I head out to the river to chase ducks, and the sheets of ice are coming by, I'm really glad it's my buddies Chessie that we have with. I would still bring my future draht, but I would make dang sure to have blankets or burlap or something to help it warm up between retrieves.


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You seem like a sensible guy...I hope you get a good dog and enjoy your experiences afield.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:41 pm

I will be training it myself, my uncle has been a professional trainer for 10 years, produced many exceptional dogs. If I have trouble I will lean to him for help. That's a really legitimate question though!


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:44 pm

@gonehuntin- hopefully I find that a males personality meets my criteria then! I have never had a dog I couldn't train, and I've worke with some stubborn dogs before haha. I love the challenge of dog training, all my dogs get probably more training than they will ever need but I really enjoy it. It's the time together


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:45 pm

@griffdom I really appreciate that! I pride myself on maybe not being the smartest, but having a good amount of common sense.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:45 pm

Labs wrote:Are you planning on training the dog yourself, or send it to a trainer? The answer to this question would tell me which way you should go....the DD is not for the novice trainer. If your going to send it out, go DD...if you are going to try to train it yourself...go Lab...simple as that...


That's an excellent point. A DD is twice the work of a lab. Not only are you training a handling retriever, you are training a pointer. That means twice the time, twice the work, twice the equipment, specialized birds. He has his uncle helping him; hopefully, he's trainied pointers as well as retrievers.

Great point though.
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Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:53 pm

@ gonehuntin
I hadn't considered that before, like you said great point. Luckily my uncle started on pointers, and eventually went to flushers. I have access to unlimited live pigeons to train on and I am not afraid to do my research and teach myself how to work with the dog. The only thing I am concerned with training wise is my inexperience with training a pointer to either be steady to shot, fall or flush by command. As I am inexperienced with pointers, this will be a challenge for me to figure out what I want.
What do you guys prefer? Also how do you guys prefer to work with a pointer on birds that are running?


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:24 pm

You guys might hate me for asking this, but how different is a puddle pointer than a DD?


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:08 am

Not at all, good to see a man doing his research. I don't own a pudelpointer, but the PP was on my short list for quite some time. Thus, I've done fairly extensive research into the breed. Here are a few things that I've learned: the PP is a high drive dog that is an excellent all around dog. They have a strong pointing instinct, have a strong drive to retrieve and track well. These dogs are going to generally be a little softer than the DD when it comes to training. They are both sharp on fur. They generally have a little more personality than the DD. The main differences between the two are that the PP generally will range a little further, be a little smaller, and have a less consistent coats among and between litters. The DD has less consistency in temperament among individuals and litters. The PP you can generally count on to not be aggressive. If you go to certain breeders(PM me if interested) you can have a high probability to get the coat type your after in the PP. Bottom line is you've narrowed your list down to the DD and the PP so you stand a great chance to get a great dog. Go to the NAPPA website and call some PP breeders.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby FFT » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:21 am

Have you considered the support you may desire, weather its navda or gna-dd? I love my local dd chapter and have many friends within it. Just a consideration. Also, is there a pp group to train with?

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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:53 pm

Thanks griffdom! It seems like there are more similarities to pp and dd than there are differences. I will have to get to a few trials in the spring to see which I like more. Do you have a griff? I hear they are very similar as well.


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Jarbo03 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:57 am

A griff can do anything you are looking for also, I am very pleased with mine.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:21 am

Labs wrote:Most, if not all, reputable DD breeders will require you to be on a waiting list and get involved in the draht training program. I understand your dilemma, and everyone is going to have opinions about the dogs they own...There are one main question that I have not seen answered in this thread....

Are you planning on training the dog yourself, or send it to a trainer? The answer to this question would tell me which way you should go....the DD is not for the novice trainer. If your going to send it out, go DD...if you are going to try to train it yourself...go Lab...simple as that...


I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of that post....

First, many breeders certainly encourage you to test their pups (it is after all, why the breed is what it is), but I never talked to any breeder that required it. My breeder was more interested in pups going to good hunting homes than having his pups tested.

Secondly, a DD (or any versatile breed like a PP, Griff, etc.) is NOT twice the work of another dog. Certainly you will be training for both retrieve and pointing (and potentially tracking), but you should not assume it's the equivalent of training a FT setter and a FT lab....it's not.

DD's do not require the retriever work of a lab. They were not bred to be handled like a lab. They rely on their noses, not hand signals. I've FF my dog, and I did minimal casting work just to get him to start off in the direction I want for blind retrieves, but after that, there's no hand signals, no baseball, no whistles, etc.....their noses do it. You want that independence in the dog. They learn quickly, and remember it well, and their drive is such that it doesn't take much to get them into it.

They also don't require nearly the repetition of a retriever, and often get bored or lose interested with drill after drill after drill. Training my dog was not some uber intense, year long slog through tons of books, regiments, drills, etc. These dogs learn so quickly, and have great intuition, that a few hours a week did the trick.

FWIW, I'm a novice owner (grew up with labs, but never owned my own dog), and far from a die hard hunter. I work full time, and never had issues training or finding time for my dog. Personally, I would NEVER send any dog I own away for training....that's part of the fun, and part of the reason why I got the dog in the first place (to spend time afield together). Training made for a great bond between me and my dog, and we're both better for doing it together.

That said, as I had no experience with pointers (or FF), I did seek out help and worked with a trainer once a week for a few months, but it was nothing too intense. Pointer work was 1 day a week, 3 planted quail each time, for a few months. All you're teaching the dog is steadiness...the point comes with the breed.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:51 am

mojo wrote:

Secondly, a DD (or any versatile breed like a PP, Griff, etc.) is NOT twice the work of another dog. Certainly you will be training for both retrieve and pointing (and potentially tracking), but you should not assume it's the equivthe alent of training a FT setter and a FT lab....it's not.

DD's do not require the retriever work of a lab. They were not bred to be handled like a lab. They rely on their noses, not hand signals. I've FF my dog, and I did minimal casting work just to get him to start off in the direction I want for blind retrieves, but after that, there's no hand signals, no baseball, no whistles, etc.....their noses do it. You want that independence in the dog. They learn quickly, and remember it well, and their drive is such that it doesn't take much to get them into it.


Now matter how far you take the dog, they"re twice the work. Try to take them to a FT lever (if you could) and they'd be five times the work.

mojo wrote:They also don't require nearly the repetition of a retriever, and often get bored or lose interested with drill after drill after drill. Training my dog was not some uber intense, year long slog through tons of books, regiments, drills, etc. These dogs learn so quickly, and have great intuition, that a few hours a week did the trick.


They do require the repetetition of you take them to the same level of training, which some do.


mojo wrote:That said, as I had no experience with pointers (or FF), I did seek out help and worked with a trainer once a week for a few months, but it was nothing too intense. Pointer work was 1 day a week, 3 planted quail each time, for a few months. All you're teaching the dog is steadiness...the point comes with the breed


Many DD's don't have the "point" other pointing breeds do, so they require a bit more work. They also have to learn to track, relocate, hold steady to wing, shot, fall, honor, stand off a bird, how hard to push a bird, etc. One day a week usually doesn't do it.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:43 pm

Like you said...it depends on how far you want to take a dog. If that includes FT, VGPs, or a NAHVDA Invitationals then great...and you're going to have a lot more work on your hands than someone who just wants a reliable hunting dog (regardless of breed).

I wanted a reliable hunting dog. I have that. My dog would probably not pass a VGP (because I haven't trained for it..not because of the dog itself), but he finds plenty of birds, holds steady through shot, and will retrieve anything I tell him to in just about any condition.

Each individual dog will obviously need different requirements, even among the same breed, but I think it's disingenuous to scare someone away from a certain breed by claiming they are "twice the work", when honestly so much depends on the actual dog, and ultimately what the owner expects out of it....and the bottom line is that a DD is different than a lab or a setter, so one's approach should not be to double up on a setter/pointer program with a retriever program. Yes, there's lots of overlap, but there's lots of differences as well.

I'm presenting my actual experience from owning, training, and hunting a DD over the last 3 years....not stuff I've read on the internet, or heard from a friend of a friend, or saw in a magazine. I'm not saying that will be everyone's experience.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby mojo » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:55 pm

One day a week usually doesn't do it.


I think anyone who has owned a dog, let alone a hunting dog, understands that you are "training" the dog all the time, especially during that first year. My point was never that you can work your dog for a couple hours once a week and be all set. Every time we left the house (and even while inside it) my dog and I were training. But it wasn't some ungodly amount of "work" that was too much for me (a novice).
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:57 pm

Minneguy wrote:Thanks griffdom! It seems like there are more similarities to pp and dd than there are differences. I will have to get to a few trials in the spring to see which I like more. Do you have a griff? I hear they are very similar as well.


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Yes, my griff is only a pup. I've done what I would consider extensive research into the griff and pudelpointer as they were my top two breeds before choosing the griff. They are both great breeds. My buddy has a griff as well that is a little older and she is coming along nicely. In fact, we hunted all day yesterday and I'd say that his dog performed equal to my more experienced shorthair by a small margine hunting pheasant and quail. His dog had several nice points that produced birds. Some that we were even able to shoot. :) My dog, as well as my buddy's, came with a very strong natural desire to retrieve and water love. The average griff isn't going have the dock diving type entry that some labs do, but they enter without hesitation. The griff, pudelpointer, and/or DD can do all that you want. Here's the catch: with the PP and DD you can just about go to any breeder and have a good chance at a good hunting dog. With the griff you have to do more research to sort through the show breeders and non hunting breeders. I have a shortlist of about 4-5 breeders that are producing very good dogs with good field coats. I am sure that there are others producing good dogs as well, but I just don't know as much about them. The griff is generally easy to live with based upon my own experience and talking to many other griff owners. He is much calmer than my shorthair and is very personable. Whereas, my shorthair is almost all about hunting. Let me know if you have any more questions... I've heard people say that the griff is more like the lab in temperament than any other pointing breed. I would have to agree that they are a lot like them as far as temperament goes.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:56 pm

I'm not worried about training, I will do what I can and get help for the rest. I also am not concerned with getting a trial dog out of the process, I just care about the basics (obedience and retrieval skills, steadiness in blind, etc)
I appreciate the concern guys, and if it does become an issue I can always get help from a pro.



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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:58 pm

So griff, it seems like the griff has gotten bred like the golden retriever, where it is hard to find a good field bred dog. It also seems like the griff is a little less energetic and a slightly larger dog overall, would you say this is true?


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Minneguy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:26 pm

The other thing to consider, my 9 month old Aussie has learned to do multiple marked retrieves, guided blind retrieves, and even the occasional mouse retrieve haha. I think i should e ok, but if not I will do what it takes. They can't be any harder to train than a female Chessie...... Can they?


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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Griffdom » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:40 pm

Minneguy wrote:So griff, it seems like the griff has gotten bred like the golden retriever, where it is hard to find a good field bred dog. It also seems like the griff is a little less energetic and a slightly larger dog overall, would you say this is true?


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I don't think it is quite that bad, but you do want to do some research. The griff is actually the smallest of the wirehaire versatiles. The standard calls for between about 45-60 I believe. The field griff is smaller than your show griff on average.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Jarbo03 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:58 pm

Definitely not hard to find a good griff. Just as you would a lab, study the dam and sire, see them work.

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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby chrisss » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:13 pm

Not sure if your still looking for a dd but there's a lot of very nice breeding this winter. All listed on the vdd site
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby Labs » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:52 pm

mojo wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of that post....

First, many breeders certainly encourage you to test their pups (it is after all, why the breed is what it is), but I never talked to any breeder that required it. My breeder was more interested in pups going to good hunting homes than having his pups tested.

Secondly, a DD (or any versatile breed like a PP, Griff, etc.) is NOT twice the work of another dog. Certainly you will be training for both retrieve and pointing (and potentially tracking), but you should not assume it's the equivalent of training a FT setter and a FT lab....it's not.

DD's do not require the retriever work of a lab. They were not bred to be handled like a lab. They rely on their noses, not hand signals. I've FF my dog, and I did minimal casting work just to get him to start off in the direction I want for blind retrieves, but after that, there's no hand signals, no baseball, no whistles, etc.....their noses do it. You want that independence in the dog. They learn quickly, and remember it well, and their drive is such that it doesn't take much to get them into it.

They also don't require nearly the repetition of a retriever, and often get bored or lose interested with drill after drill after drill. Training my dog was not some uber intense, year long slog through tons of books, regiments, drills, etc. These dogs learn so quickly, and have great intuition, that a few hours a week did the trick.

FWIW, I'm a novice owner (grew up with labs, but never owned my own dog), and far from a die hard hunter. I work full time, and never had issues training or finding time for my dog. Personally, I would NEVER send any dog I own away for training....that's part of the fun, and part of the reason why I got the dog in the first place (to spend time afield together). Training made for a great bond between me and my dog, and we're both better for doing it together.

That said, as I had no experience with pointers (or FF), I did seek out help and worked with a trainer once a week for a few months, but it was nothing too intense. Pointer work was 1 day a week, 3 planted quail each time, for a few months. All you're teaching the dog is steadiness...the point comes with the breed.


If you don't test your DD in the "program", you no longer have a DD....you simply have a wirehair...
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby ohio mike » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:15 pm

Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of that post....

First, many breeders certainly encourage you to test their pups (it is after all, why the breed is what it is), but I never talked to any breeder that required it. My breeder was more interested in pups going to good hunting homes than having his pups tested.

Secondly, a DD (or any versatile breed like a PP, Griff, etc.) is NOT twice the work of another dog. Certainly you will be training for both retrieve and pointing (and potentially tracking), but you should not assume it's the equivalent of training a FT setter and a FT lab....it's not.

DD's do not require the retriever work of a lab. They were not bred to be handled like a lab. They rely on their noses, not hand signals. I've FF my dog, and I did minimal casting work just to get him to start off in the direction I want for blind retrieves, but after that, there's no hand signals, no baseball, no whistles, etc.....their noses do it. You want that independence in the dog. They learn quickly, and remember it well, and their drive is such that it doesn't take much to get them into it.

They also don't require nearly the repetition of a retriever, and often get bored or lose interested with drill after drill after drill. Training my dog was not some uber intense, year long slog through tons of books, regiments, drills, etc. These dogs learn so quickly, and have great intuition, that a few hours a week did the trick.

FWIW, I'm a novice owner (grew up with labs, but never owned my own dog), and far from a die hard hunter. I work full time, and never had issues training or finding time for my dog. Personally, I would NEVER send any dog I own away for training....that's part of the fun, and part of the reason why I got the dog in the first place (to spend time afield together). Training made for a great bond between me and my dog, and we're both better for doing it together.

That said, as I had no experience with pointers (or FF), I did seek out help and worked with a trainer once a week for a few months, but it was nothing too intense. Pointer work was 1 day a week, 3 planted quail each time, for a few months. All you're teaching the dog is steadiness...the point comes with the breed.


If you don't test your DD in the "program", you no longer have a DD....you simply have a wirehair...


Exactly, no DD's in AKC or NAVHDA although alot of the Wirehairs there came from DD background.
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Re: Dilemma regarding DD lab and springer

Postby OmegaRed » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:29 am

Labs wrote:
mojo wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of that post....

First, many breeders certainly encourage you to test their pups (it is after all, why the breed is what it is), but I never talked to any breeder that required it. My breeder was more interested in pups going to good hunting homes than having his pups tested.

Secondly, a DD (or any versatile breed like a PP, Griff, etc.) is NOT twice the work of another dog. Certainly you will be training for both retrieve and pointing (and potentially tracking), but you should not assume it's the equivalent of training a FT setter and a FT lab....it's not.

DD's do not require the retriever work of a lab. They were not bred to be handled like a lab. They rely on their noses, not hand signals. I've FF my dog, and I did minimal casting work just to get him to start off in the direction I want for blind retrieves, but after that, there's no hand signals, no baseball, no whistles, etc.....their noses do it. You want that independence in the dog. They learn quickly, and remember it well, and their drive is such that it doesn't take much to get them into it.

They also don't require nearly the repetition of a retriever, and often get bored or lose interested with drill after drill after drill. Training my dog was not some uber intense, year long slog through tons of books, regiments, drills, etc. These dogs learn so quickly, and have great intuition, that a few hours a week did the trick.

FWIW, I'm a novice owner (grew up with labs, but never owned my own dog), and far from a die hard hunter. I work full time, and never had issues training or finding time for my dog. Personally, I would NEVER send any dog I own away for training....that's part of the fun, and part of the reason why I got the dog in the first place (to spend time afield together). Training made for a great bond between me and my dog, and we're both better for doing it together.

That said, as I had no experience with pointers (or FF), I did seek out help and worked with a trainer once a week for a few months, but it was nothing too intense. Pointer work was 1 day a week, 3 planted quail each time, for a few months. All you're teaching the dog is steadiness...the point comes with the breed.


If you don't test your DD in the "program", you no longer have a DD....you simply have a wirehair...


If you don't test in VDD, you can't breed. Still a DD, just not breedable as one.
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