Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Share hunting dog tips, hunting dog training questions or links of interest here.

Moderators: captainkevan, swampbilly 1980, HNTFSH, hunt-chessies

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:44 pm

If he started FF end of Oct., he isn't really even started yet. Give him another month.

For what it's worth in the future, I don't like e sending a young dog like that to a trainer. Many don't take pressure well, the trainer has to go eSier on them, and you don't get your money's worth in training. I liked getting them at nine months and if I were still training, that's when I'd take them today. At six months some dog's will develop a tremendous resentment toward pressure and the trainer.

I also think you don't gain a damned thing by starting early. You have to tread so lightly that you don't get a lot done. Many, many times you can start a dog later and surpass the dog started at six months.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2398
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm


Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby MoBrad » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:12 am

There is a lot of data out there on how dogs learn, the good trainers are up on it, if you have a guy, who is a pro with good recommendations and references, I'm sure he is fine. I hate the forums for any topic when you start getting people saying, "well MY 'fill in the blank' did this" and MY 'fill in the blank' did that." Don't let internet supposed authorities cause you any anxiety over their personal anecdotal experience with one or two dogs. Even if you don't want to do Field trials or hunt tests, which is fine, great even, that does NOT discount the efficacy of the training you and your dog will receive from a pro trainer who primarily trains for those events. Yes, if they have the drive a whole lot of dogs CAN see a duck fall and go out and bring it back. I believe, for me, and I'm only speaking for me, there is a lot more that a dog is capable of and I want to harness all of that ability. Now I know I can train to some of that ability, but I hold no illusion that I can maximize a dogs performance, that is what I want out of a dog, so I turn to a pro.

Blind retrieves where I can handle the dog with whistles and hand signals into an area to find a down bird, no, not just any dog can do that, and that needs to be trained. One thing that I wanted and got from the two trainers I have used, is I want to go train with them too. I want them to train me! I don't know everything, I want them to watch me handle my dog and give pointers on what I can do better or different. I like when they let me handle other dogs to see how different dogs respond to hand and whistle. I learn so much from these days, and both guys I worked with kind of liked the change of pace in their days, I think.

As some have said, FF is NOT just holding onto what you tell the dog to hold onto until you tell it to release. Its compliance training that is a building block for all of the future stuff that dog will be learning. It is important, and its not fun, but the dog will be better off and better able to learn the more complicated stuff later for going through the process.

I have no doubt that both your trainer and your dog are fine!
MoBrad
hunter
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:08 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:12 am

B.E.Nelli wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:
B.E.Nelli wrote:...considering the literally hundreds of reviews of his work I have read that were ALL raving about him...


Wow, I don't think I could find hundreds of written rave reviews on Lardy or Farmer, your man must be something. Wonder you could get a dog placed with him.


Don't be an ass please...


If making the case that being straight with folks here might help your chances of getting useful responses is being an ass, I don't mind being that. Best of luck to your pup.
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.
User avatar
Rick Hall
hunter
 
Posts: 13691
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:03 pm

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:09 pm

MoBrad wrote:There is a lot of data out there on how dogs learn, the good trainers are up on it, if you have a guy, who is a pro with good recommendations and references, I'm sure he is fine. I hate the forums for any topic when you start getting people saying, "well MY 'fill in the blank' did this" and MY 'fill in the blank' did that." Don't let internet supposed authorities cause you any anxiety over their personal anecdotal experience with one or two dogs. Even if you don't want to do Field trials or hunt tests, which is fine, great even, that does NOT discount the efficacy of the training you and your dog will receive from a pro trainer who primarily trains for those events. Yes, if they have the drive a whole lot of dogs CAN see a duck fall and go out and bring it back. I believe, for me, and I'm only speaking for me, there is a lot more that a dog is capable of and I want to harness all of that ability. Now I know I can train to some of that ability, but I hold no illusion that I can maximize a dogs performance, that is what I want out of a dog, so I turn to a pro.

Blind retrieves where I can handle the dog with whistles and hand signals into an area to find a down bird, no, not just any dog can do that, and that needs to be trained. One thing that I wanted and got from the two trainers I have used, is I want to go train with them too. I want them to train me! I don't know everything, I want them to watch me handle my dog and give pointers on what I can do better or different. I like when they let me handle other dogs to see how different dogs respond to hand and whistle. I learn so much from these days, and both guys I worked with kind of liked the change of pace in their days, I think.

As some have said, FF is NOT just holding onto what you tell the dog to hold onto until you tell it to release. Its compliance training that is a building block for all of the future stuff that dog will be learning. It is important, and its not fun, but the dog will be better off and better able to learn the more complicated stuff later for going through the process.

I have no doubt that both your trainer and your dog are fine!


Thanks man. I too am not able to personally achieve those levels myself either, but also want to unleash all of my pups potential. I like this trainer because he does encourage me to come work with her as often as I can. Being away precludes that currently. But down the road I will be there as often as possible. I had never thought of FF the way you described it, but that makes sense. That is the first time the dog has been completely forced to trust you, and makes a great building block for other tasks down the road.

Thank you for such an insightful response.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby buckmeister » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:36 pm

I wanted my dogs to handle and retrieve reliably to hand, that is why I spent time teaching them to take hand signals and did not waste time on pinching their ear to grab a bumper, although I will admit it did leave a few flaws. At the training pond a while back some med students had gotten their Frisbee out in the middle of the pond and asked if I could have one of my dogs retrieve it for them. I sent my lab on a blind 100 yard retrieve to the Frisbee to fetch it but should we not pick it up even though I cast her over it twice, she will only pick up birds or bumpers on the water, not Frisbees (unusual for a lab I know). I guess if she would have been forced fetched she would have complied.
"Give me liberty or give me death"
buckmeister
hunter
 
Posts: 4306
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:07 pm
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby Dakota Creek » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:54 pm

buckmeister wrote:I wanted my dogs to handle and retrieve reliably to hand, that is why I spent time teaching them to take hand signals and did not waste time on pinching their ear to grab a bumper, although I will admit it did leave a few flaws. At the training pond a while back some med students had gotten their Frisbee out in the middle of the pond and asked if I could have one of my dogs retrieve it for them. I sent my lab on a blind 100 yard retrieve to the Frisbee to fetch it but should we not pick it up even though I cast her over it twice, she will only pick up birds or bumpers on the water, not Frisbees (unusual for a lab I know). I guess if she would have been forced fetched she would have complied.


That is why you do the process of FF ..... as you do not simply FF to bumpers or birds .... you have them reaching out and retrieving / holding anything that you ask of them ..... bumper, glove and yes you could even FF to a frisbee .... just to have them hold different objects that taste different, smell different and feel different it their mouths.

As both Mobrad and I stated, FF is not simply a hold exercise .... the dog learns in the entire FF process how to comply by "turning the pressure off". By having a dog that has learned via FF how to comply under any circumstance (a dog who has completed FF should be doing this with limited or no pressure), has learned how to work with you and gives you a dog that is a team player and not an "independent operator" who may listen and who may not depending upon the situation.
GMHR-III Dakota Creek's Royal Navigator MH (AKC & CKC)
MHR Pine Acre's Dakota Sand Creek SH WCI
Dakota Creek's Royal Gem
Dakota Creek's Long Shot
Dakota Creek's Wreaking Havoc
Dakota Creek
hunter
 
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:39 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:55 am

Well update from the trainer says she is doing BETTER, but still not where he would like her to be. But at least they are making headway. He is gonna start shooting some pheasants for her too, and see if she got the pointing gene or not. I'm pretty confident she DoD though, as she would point song birds in the yard quite often when she was younger. We will see though. I'm just glad for an improvement over the last update. I was worried there for a bit.

Thanks again for the help and encouragement boys.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby crackerd » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:01 am

Rick Hall wrote:
B.E.Nelli wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:
B.E.Nelli wrote:...considering the literally hundreds of reviews of his work I have read that were ALL raving about him...


Wow, I don't think I could find hundreds of written rave reviews on Lardy or Farmer, your man must be something. Wonder you could get a dog placed with him.


Don't be an ass please...


If making the case that being straight with folks here might help your chances of getting useful responses is being an ass, I don't mind being that. Best of luck to your pup.


Rick wasn't being what you asked him (please) not to be - he was being pragmatic. I've known a ton of testimonials/rave reviews go to trainers that inevitably needed to be retracted. And you did say "literally hundreds" of them on file. Not to say your trainer ain't upstanding in every way and honest with you on his every assessing syllable about your dog. But what about this trainer training "pointing" Labs - adds another element to the equation for what you (and he, the trainer) would consider success? Now if he told you he was having to "train" a Lab dog to point, my scepticism antennae would be up in a hurry.

MG
crackerd
hunter
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:49 am
Location: Eastern seaboard

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby Rick Hall » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:44 am

I'm glad things seem to be turning Nelli's way, but I'd not put any faith at all in "reviews" posted on a site that will gladly print whatever its customer is willing to buy space for - or any unverified so-said testimonial anywhere, for that matter.
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.
User avatar
Rick Hall
hunter
 
Posts: 13691
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:03 pm

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:06 am

crackerd wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:
B.E.Nelli wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:
B.E.Nelli wrote:...considering the literally hundreds of reviews of his work I have read that were ALL raving about him...


Wow, I don't think I could find hundreds of written rave reviews on Lardy or Farmer, your man must be something. Wonder you could get a dog placed with him.


Don't be an ass please...


If making the case that being straight with folks here might help your chances of getting useful responses is being an ass, I don't mind being that. Best of luck to your pup.


Rick wasn't being what you asked him (please) not to be - he was being pragmatic. I've known a ton of testimonials/rave reviews go to trainers that inevitably needed to be retracted. And you did say "literally hundreds" of them on file. Not to say your trainer ain't upstanding in every way and honest with you on his every assessing syllable about your dog. But what about this trainer training "pointing" Labs - adds another element to the equation for what you (and he, the trainer) would consider success? Now if he told you he was having to "train" a Lab dog to point, my scepticism antennae would be up in a hurry.

MG


Yeah, I know I misspoke when I said hundreds. Like I said it seemed like that many after reading them all. I apologize for the tall tale. And yes my flags also wouldve went up of he said he would teach her to point. We talked in depth about this. She is from great pointing lines, and like i said pointed in the yard. He said this will be the true test with some live quail and pheasants as to of she has it or not. I am not going to have him teach her to hold for birds, that's not natural. If she doesnt point, I will just use her as a flushing retriever. Thats all I need for a green horn just trying to get some pheasants on the dinner table.

He works with a lot of pointing labs and other pointers as well, so he told it to me straight that only she determines of she will point, he can't train that.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby Rick Hall » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:18 am

99.9% (OK, that's a rough guesstimate and, perhaps, hyperbole) of pointing dogs are trained to hold point. Pointing in the first place is instinctual and found in varying degrees, but instinctual staunchness (ie: holding point indefinitely until the bird moves or someone else flushes) is quite rare, and even then apt to degrade over time without training.
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.
User avatar
Rick Hall
hunter
 
Posts: 13691
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:03 pm

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby crackerd » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:22 am

Rick Hall wrote:I'm glad things seem to be turning Nelli's way, but I'd not put any faith at all in "reviews" posted on a site that will gladly print whatever its customer is willing to buy space for - or any unverified so-said testimonial anywhere, for that matter.


Agreed, Rick, but what can I say? - looked up B.E. Nelli's man (and woman helper) and, shucks, guess I'm a sucker for anybody who's breeding and training Boykins (for both upland and waterfowl). Everything sounds right, just have to hope they're doing right by their concerned client.

MG
crackerd
hunter
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:49 am
Location: Eastern seaboard

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:31 am

I didn't get her from him. I found my breeder in Marshalltown IA from Hunters Point Kennels. They strictly breed pointing labs. They have the history to prove their dogs are truly pointing labs. They came highly recommended by a man I personally knew at K and L Kennels in MO. He personally trained the Sire to my litter. Awesome awesome dog.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:34 am

crackerd wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:I'm glad things seem to be turning Nelli's way, but I'd not put any faith at all in "reviews" posted on a site that will gladly print whatever its customer is willing to buy space for - or any unverified so-said testimonial anywhere, for that matter.


Agreed, Rick, but what can I say? - looked up B.E. Nelli's man (and woman helper) and, shucks, guess I'm a sucker for anybody who's breeding and training Boykins (for both upland and waterfowl). Everything sounds right, just have to hope they're doing right by their concerned client.

MG


Don't interpret that they are doing wrong by me. I am thoroughly confident they are doing their best to get me a dog as close to the goals that I set with them before dropping her off.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:52 pm

B.E.Nelli wrote:


And yes my flags also wouldve went up of he said he would teach her to point. We talked in depth about this. She is from great pointing lines, and like i said pointed in the yard. He said this will be the true test with some live quail and pheasants as to of she has it or not. I am not going to have him teach her to hold for birds, that's not natural. If she doesnt point, I will just use her as a flushing retriever. Thats all I need for a green horn just trying to get some pheasants on the dinner table.

He works with a lot of pointing labs and other pointers as well, so he told it to me straight that only she determines of she will point, he can't train that.


First, it is natural for her to hold on flushed birds. She could (as a lab), sit to flush, as a pointing dog stand to flush. That's training.

His other statement is absolutely correct; you can't teach a dog to point, it's genetic. Actually, you can MAKE them point, but they're never really reliable.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2398
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:43 am

You just covered what I was going to say. Dogs can be taught to point. Not solidly but it can be taught. As can sit or steady to flush. I recently CC conditioned my 2 year old lab since she decided that sit to flush no longer fit her hunting ticket. I have to have a means to control her at a distance, hence the collar. We are working through various drills systematically to get her to the point where I can get back to sit to flush in her training. I am short leashing her to a stake in the duck blinds and working her on breaking at the shot which is a recent issue we were having.
Last edited by ScaupHunter on Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bella's
Decoy Setting Pro Staff
Boat Operator Pro Staff
Duck Shooting Pro Staff
Warm Towel Pro Staff
Snack Supply Pro Staff

He works for free! Who's the B now?
User avatar
ScaupHunter
hunter
 
Posts: 6654
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:57 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:50 am

I was under the impression that a dog either naturally points or doesn't. You can not teach a dog to point, it has another name in the dog training world. Its escaping me at the moment.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:22 pm

B.E.Nelli wrote:I was under the impression that a dog either naturally points or doesn't. You can not teach a dog to point, it has another name in the dog training world. Its escaping me at the moment.


People call it pointing. You can call it standing a bird, etc. but most would call it teaching to point. I think that with ecollars and etraps, you could teach a possum' to point.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2398
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:21 pm

If a dog can learn to sit, heel, come, and other things it can learn to point. Arguing otherwise is just plain silly and illogical. Give me a shock collar and any reasonably intelligent animal with the right physical properties and I can guarantee you it can be taught to go on point of one form or another. Point well? Maybe. Point consitantly? Maybe. Steady? Maybe. Point a bird every time? Totally trainable.

If a dog can learn one thing, it can be taught another within it's physical and mental abilities. I bet you I can teach a Mastiff, Dachsund, Pit, or Border Collie to point just fine.

Discussing the idea that some dogs will naturally point and steady up far more easily on birds is perfectly logical and holds a lot of truth. That is why they breed pointing labs and other pointing breeds. All labs and many other water breeds will point to some extent. Bella does it all the time and doesn't come from pointing lab stock. I am keeping an eye on her. If she starts to point more than she already does, I may proceed with working her on it. If she stays where she is occasionally pointing I will keep her as a flushing lab.
Last edited by ScaupHunter on Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bella's
Decoy Setting Pro Staff
Boat Operator Pro Staff
Duck Shooting Pro Staff
Warm Towel Pro Staff
Snack Supply Pro Staff

He works for free! Who's the B now?
User avatar
ScaupHunter
hunter
 
Posts: 6654
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:57 am

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby Rick Hall » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:26 pm

Whether a dog is "pointing" or only "standing game" seems largely a matter of personal semantics, as many claim only pointing breeds "point," and everything else just stands game. Yet, most all beings seem to point instinctively. Most of us guys may catch ourselves doing it when a gal who does her jeans justice passes. Cats do it before pouncing on a mouse. Birds do it before flushing from danger. And so on. But what really matters is that a dog used to point game hold that point a desired, or at least useful, length of time before breaking to pounce or chase, and the overwhelming majority of pointing breed dogs must be trained by one method or another to do that.

Pointing dog icon, Bill West, was known for his "silent method" of teaching pointing dogs to hold point, so called because he used a checkcord to hold the dog on point the desired time until it became trained to do so on its own, rather than teaching a "whoa" command then used in conjunction with or in place of a checkcord as many pointing dog trainers do. Somewhat ironically in the context of this thread, West's most popular media rendition of the silent method was the video, "Training Labs to Point," which was far and away more popular with pointing dog owners.
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.
User avatar
Rick Hall
hunter
 
Posts: 13691
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:03 pm

Re: Bad news from the dog trainer!!

Postby B.E.Nelli » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:40 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:If a dog can learn to sit, heel, come, and other things it can learn to point. Arguing otherwise is just plain silly and illogical. Give me a shock collar and any reasonably intelligent animal with the right physical properties and I can guarantee you it can be taught to go on point of one form or another. Point well? Maybe. Point consitantly? Maybe. Steady? Maybe. Point a bird every time? Totally trainable.

If a dog can learn one thing, it can be taught another within it's physical and mental abilities. I bet you I can teach a Mastiff, Dachsund, Pit, or Border Collie to point just fine.

Discussing the idea that some dogs will naturally point and steady up far more easily on birds is perfectly logical and holds a lot of truth. That is why they breed pointing labs and other pointing breeds. All labs and many other water breeds will point to some extent. Bella does it all the time and doesn't come from pointing lab stock. I am keeping an eye on her. If she starts to point more than she already does, I may proceed with working her on it. If she stays where she is occasionally pointing I will keep her as a flushing lab.



Whoa whoa, I never said you couldn't teach a dog to do it or not. I simply had been told that there are 2 different terms. Either a dog points naturally, or it is taught to stand game. Thank you Rick, that was the term I was looking for. It probably is semantics, but I am no dog trainer, so I don't know the difference. I had simply been told that was the difference between a born pointer and a taught pointer.
User avatar
B.E.Nelli
hunter
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:13 am

Previous

Return to Hunting Dog Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Catchin Zs, dogyak, Splatt and 18 guests