Sit to pile/remote sit

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Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:37 am

10 month old male lab, been through FF and CC.

I've been doing pile work and simple casting for a while now and trying to get the sit to pile/remote sit down so I can move on. I can not for the life of me get the dog to remote sit on a whistle when he's on his way back from the pile. I try to stop him and it's like he thinks he needs to get back to me then sit.

I'm puzzled by it because when we aren't doing pile work and he is at a distance just relaxing sniffing around I can give a whistle blast and he will sit where he is without coming in running.

He has been through CC but I haven't been nicking him with a bumper in his mouth during pile work. Also I think we may need to revisit CC to sit. I didn't initially CC him I had him at a trainer for CC and FF. I've tried using a rope doubled around a post and use that to stop him and that didn't get through to him at all it just made him panic and try that much harder to get in close. Right now I am having to walk out to where I want him to stop and sit him on his way in then leave him there and return to the starting line and bring him in.

Any tips or drills to try out or just keep doing OB sessions with him? Nick him with bumper in his mouth at this stage ok or not?
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby Tanner01 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:54 am

Is the remote sit out to the pile ok?
If you mean a front sit instead of a the heal position just take a quick step towards the dog, whistle and command sit. Your forward movement should stop the dogs movement. Work it close and with repetition you can start to stop the dog further out. This worked well for my GSP.

I think a dog on the way back in from the pile that wants to retrieve quickly is not a bad problem to have. Momentum out and back can be hard to maintain or achieve during pile work.
This was hard for me to get with my WPG

I use the collar initially to force to the back pile only, I don't correct with collar on the overs.
Using the collar for sit is only after the back to pile is well established as learned behavior. Pressure from the collar is used to teach the dog to run back hard and fast, sometimes if you hit them with the collar for a sit they just run harder.

Sit on a whistle can and should be practiced while not doing pile work. Once it is well established he should sit even if chasing a running bird. Perhaps sit just needs to be reenforced outside of pile work and that can and should be done with the collar?
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:07 am

[quote="Tanner01"]Is the remote sit out to the pile ok?
It's not perfect because I haven't done a lot of it yet, but yes, I can stop him on the way out to the pile and recast.

If you mean a front sit instead of a the heal position.
Nope, most of our pile work is from a front finish and he's fine with that. It's the stopping him at a distance while he's on his way back.

I use the collar initially to force to the back pile only, I don't correct with collar on the overs.

This is what I have been doing. It's been BACK.... BACK nick BACK


Sit on a whistle can and should be practiced while not doing pile work. Once it is well established he should sit even if chasing a running bird.

He will sit on a whistle on a flush and shot of pheasants.

Perhaps sit just needs to be reenforced outside of pile work and that can and should be done with the collar?
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:23 am

He is just confused now. There is an easy way out for you and it's called a double rope. It's easiest done with a helper but can be done alone. Put a 100' rope on the dog and have a helper hold it. Now put another 100' rope attached to the SNAP of the first rope. This rope you keep.

Have the dog sit near the helper and walk away. Now, call him to you and let him come to heel. Have the helper stand next to him and call him to you again. This time when he has trotted 20-30, blow the sit whistle, have the helper snub his line, and you tighten yours. Now he can't go anywhere and HAS to sit.

Keep doing the drill, alternating sit and a complete here, until he has it. While he is on the double rope reinforce sit with the collar.

My guess is that a force sit was not initially done and that is why you're now having the problem.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby Spry Yellowdog » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:45 pm

Sounds to me like you have done a good job on your FTP work. He wants that bumper and needs to get it to you NOW!
The force has him doing what you want, At 10 months whistle sits arn't compleatly instilled yet. I would finish pile work
then work more on whistle sits with a bit of force to it. Mine did the exact same thing on force to pile. We lost most whistle sits.
Backed up and worked on the sit by it's self then rejoined it together in T and casting drills.
Good Luck

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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby copterdoc » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:15 pm

You can use a rope, but it's a major hassle, and it's easy to mess up.

What your dog is doing is extremely common.

I just walk out and meet the dog saying sit several times as I approach.
As soon as the dog sits, I say "goooooooood dog!!!!", and then I back up to the line before calling the dog in.

If the dog doesn't sit, or follows me back, I say "no, SIT" and as soon as he gets close, I kick him right in the chin. (Not hard, just enough to make him stop coming closer.)

It only takes a few times for the dog to get the picture, and then you can move on with pile work.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:22 pm

copterdoc wrote:You can use a rope, but it's a major hassle, and it's easy to mess up.


It's not a hassle and it would take a freakin' idiot to screw it up. Yup. I'd rather just run out and kick him in the jaw. :huh:
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby copterdoc » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:24 pm

One more thing that really helps, is to stop the dog at several different places on the way back in.

The closer the dog is to the pile, the harder it is to stop the dog.
And that applies in both directions.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby tenfingergrip » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:53 pm

Several ways to "skin that cat". I train my pups at an early age to "remote sit both going out and coming back using a 75-100 ft rope and have never had a problem. Of course they have the whistle sit down pat in spaded before I start. I use the hitch ball on the back of the truck. To teach coming back, I sit the dog directly beside the hitch, pass the rope from put around the hitch and have them stay as I walk backwards away from the dog with the hand in a "stop" position. I get about 50-60 feet away and with the rope semi tight, give the "tweet-tweet" come in whistle. After pup has busted arse about 10/12 feet I blow a hard "sit' whistle, throw up my hand in the "stop" position, hold the rope taunt (I have passed it around my thigh to make it easier and not to burn my gloves). When dog has put the arse on the ground, I praise, walk toward and present a treat (small piece of Puperoni stick) I can teach the come in remote sit in about 15 minutes. The going out remote sit is done with the car/truck hitch remote from the seated cast or while the dog is just walking around curious.

Might want to give this a try.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:33 pm

Cn44, when you were training him in the yard, did you work on that on a six foot leash? I trained it doing heeling drills. Dog on 6' leash, blow whistle, command SIT! Now, walk six feet away (end of leash), blow the come in whistle, and when he's half way in, blow one blast yell SIT!, and stop him with the heeling stick or buggy whip. If you can't stop him at three feet, you won't stop him at 30'.

Don't overdo it or the end result will be a slow and hesitant recall.

Your next step will then be the rope as ten fingers and I suggested.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:30 pm

Thanks for all the advice. I can stop him about 10 feet away from me maximum right now on his come in. When he is going out I can stop him anywhere he is in relation to the pile. I stopped him right on the pile tonight before he grabbed a bumper. The only hiccup is once he has the bumper in his mouth he is on a mission to get it back to me. I am going to keep working on sitting him coming in from the pile using the method coptordoc mentioned since that is what I have been doing already and some very SLOW progress seems to be being made. Also I'll try the two long ropes and have someone help me. The hitch/fence post method seems to really stress him and he freaks out jumping around getting tangled up in the rope.

Now, with the two long ropes do I use collar pressure on SIT or not?
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:44 pm

cn44 wrote:Also I'll try the two long ropes and have someone help me. The hitch/fence post method seems to really stress him and he freaks out jumping around getting tangled up in the rope.

Now, with the two long ropes do I use collar pressure on SIT or not?


That's the advantage of the double rope. Let him freak. Each of you have a rope and he can't go anywhere.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby copterdoc » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:22 pm

cn44 wrote:.......some very SLOW progress seems to be being made. Also I'll try the two long ropes and have someone help me. The hitch/fence post method seems to really stress him and he freaks out jumping around getting tangled up in the rope....
You need to change the way that you think about pressure.

He is confused about pressure, more than he is confused about what you want him to do.

Every dog reacts to pressure. But, their "natural" reaction is irrational and nonsensical.

In order to react correctly to pressure, you need to "explain" to them what it means.
They need to know (and I mean REALLY know) what to do, in order to get it to stop happening, or to not happen at all.

Your dog doesn't understand the pressure from the rope.

And since not understanding pressure is the REAL problem here, piling on more misunderstood pressure is just dragging this out and causing new problems.

In order to get through pile work, you NEED to apply pressure. But, the dog needs to be able to understand it.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:52 pm

cn44 wrote:Now, with the two long ropes do I use collar pressure on SIT or not?


No. He obviously is confused either on sit or the return. Sounds like you possibly nicked him at the pile to prevent "shopping the pile" ?

Be patient snub him on the ropes and command sit, also blowing the whistle. This is no place for pressure because I'm fairly certain that it 's pressure that has confused him. Once he sits reliably on the ropes, nick him for sit on the way in. Now, you have the ropes to hold him stationary and he must comply.

Whenever a dog doesn't perform a command he has been schooled on, he is probably confused or is not as well schooled as thought. If you apply collar pressure, confuse him and he starts to spin, then you have a real problem.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:54 pm

Sheesh, I hadn't read Doc's post before posting mine. I'm pretty much in agreement with Doc on the dog not understanding the pressure.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:27 pm

Ok. I don't apply much pressure at all. And definitely haven't for shopping the pile. He grabs first bumper he comes across and doesn't screw around.

I don't want to beat him to boredom with pile work so that's why I want to get this straightened out ASAP and make sure he's understanding what I want and is reliable.

Thanks for all the advice, I'll keep working on it and give an update when we get it figured out.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:47 am

You don't work a pile teaching a re-call sit. First no bumpers, then with a bumper.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby copterdoc » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:20 pm

cn44 wrote:Ok. I don't apply much pressure at all.....
Just the other day I caught a brilliant "proverb" on a painting in The Walking Dead. It said, "Smooth seas do not make good Sailors."

That hits home for all dogs going through basics, and all people that are trying to learn how to train dogs.

They don't learn what they need to learn, if you make it too easy.
And you don't learn what you need to learn, if the dog makes it too easy.

All of basics, and especially pile work, is ABOUT the dog learning the meaning of pressure.
Pressure to go, pressure to stop, and pressure to come.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:49 pm

copterdoc wrote:
cn44 wrote:Ok. I don't apply much pressure at all.....
Just the other day I caught a brilliant "proverb" on a painting in The Walking Dead. It said, "Smooth seas do not make good Sailors."

That hits home for all dogs going through basics, and all people that are trying to learn how to train dogs.

They don't learn what they need to learn, if you make it too easy.
And you don't learn what you need to learn, if the dog makes it too easy.

All of basics, and especially pile work, is ABOUT the dog learning the meaning of pressure.
Pressure to go, pressure to stop, and pressure to come.



Oh I definitely agree. I guess in my replying to one comment I leave myself open to it being interpreted wrong (my fault for not being clear) what I meant by not applying much pressure at all was: before I apply any pressure in a situation with the collar I make sure the dog knows the command without the collar. By doing this I'm not just zapping the dog for reasons unknown to him. I try to make every command/correction with the collar strategically and timely.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:41 pm

Quick update. Been working with the two ropes like mentioned on sits and he does fine with that. Removed the ropes and sat him, walked away, called him in and hit him with a sit whistle. Had hesitation and continued to me, walked towards him and hit the whistle again and he stopped and looked at me so I blew it again and he sat. Kept working this and its pretty consistent now. Went back to pile work and sits going out are just fine and takes correct back cast. As soon as that bumper is in his mouth its full bore back to me and completely blowing off the sit whistle. I've tried stopping him ten feet from me all the way to right on the pile so he doesn't get a head of steam coming back. No luck.

I don't know if I should try moving on to T work and see if that will shore up his sitting away from me with the possibility of going to a new bumper/pile or not? Also have thought that maybe blow a sit whistle and throw a bumper over his head to the pile to get him to stop look at and sit wait for his attention to get back on me and bring him in? If it doesn't pan out doing that I'll keep drilling the OB into him with sit. Snow is starting to pile up so not a lot is happening marking wise. Haven't been able to train as much as I'd like either with the cold temps. So it looks like a lot of OB is in our future.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:47 pm

Disregard my "ideas" in my previous post. After re-reading the advice already given I need to keep working on his sitting and applying pressure to the sit to make sure he fully understands and NEEDS to comply.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:14 pm

If you are walking the dog at heel, on leash, blow the sit whistle AND KEEP ON WALKING, does the dog IMMEDIATELY sit?
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:17 pm

Yes
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:23 am

I think that probably your dog understands sit and pressure just fine, he's just yanking your chain. I'd not give him a second chance. When he's coming toward you, hit the sit whistle. When he doesn't IMMEDIATELY stop, don't blow the whistle again. Walk out to him, give him three hard cracks with the heeling stick, blowing the sit whistle each time. Sit should hurt, like fetch and back. I will not tolerate ANY hesitation on sit, fetch, or back. There better be instant compliance or the dog pays the price.

You can't let these dog's tell you how they'll do a task; you're the boss; you tell them. Dog training is not a democratic process, it's a dictatorship and you're the dic.
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Re: Sit to pile/remote sit

Postby cn44 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:13 pm

Worked some more OB today and now I know he is just screwing with me and disobeying the command. I upped the pressure and got him with the heeling stick pretty good when he was sitting slowly and kept trying to creep in to me and it started to come together. Added in the collar later during our second session and he was responding quite well. Going to repeat today's progress tomorrow during the first session and hopefully accomplish a little more during the second session of the day and do some OB with a bumper in his mouth so he puts it together that having the bumper doesn't give him a free pass to ignore commands. I just need to get out more and work him more consistently. Today, luckily, was 40 degrees. Tomorrow, not so much, looks like about 10 with a 20 mph wind.

Did some simple casting and he's good with his casts to the 3 piles, I have been increasing the distance to about 20-30 yards to each pile from the "pitchers mound", I just need to get that consistent SIT so we can move on to T work.
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