Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:48 pm

Never mind that the one time UK trialing great who coached that US team sat in my blind and told me the equivalent of "We was robbed." How have the UK dogs done on our turf?

Edited to note the OP bailed on or was booted from this thread and took his posts with him. Don't blame me for it, I can get enough trouble all on my own.
Last edited by Rick Hall on Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:12 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:Never mind that the one time UK trialing great who coached that US team sat in my blind and told me the equivalent of "We was robbed." How have the UK dogs done on our turf?



If you read the article, states clearly the US trial tests are contrived and made up, they arent real shoots or hunts as brit trials are, whining is allowed in US trials and not DQd-obedience is judged less, and the focus here is on handling, to fewest whistles.
Surely, you know this Rick.
Not sure why youd expect Brits to come over for a made up test with a focus on 'tangibles' that contrast their own, which are Hunting, recovering game and doing so with extreme obedience and cooperation.

My friend attended the event and watched first hand.
The US was robbed of nothing. Lets not play sore loser now too.


Deeley was there, too, and likely knew much more about what he was seeing than your witness, but all that's beside the question you seem anxious to debate.

On the off chance you're not just playing dumb to troll, I'll point out that US trials are "made up" to test concepts which are quite relevant to hunting and "contrived" to provide as level as possible of a playing field for all participants to a degree they would be impossible to test on a hunt.

And I certainly wouldn't expect the Brits to come trial, they'd get flat smoked. But I do credit the US teams that have gone to the UK and competed for having the gumption to try a foreign sport on foreign turf.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:33 pm

Playing that "sore loser" card doesn't make your silly case any more than pointing out that trials aren't hunting.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:43 pm

Since the English have such great dogs why don't you train one and TRY to compete against an American dog? They can't carry an American dog's shed hair.

Our test are contrived due to the advanced level of the American labs. There are a pile of English and Canadian labs running and they don't do squat against our dogs.

Ours are smarter, more tractable, better markers, and have more desire. British lab to an American lab is like comparing a goat to a race horse.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby tenfingergrip » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:57 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:



Not sure what in the hell happened since 1931, as it wouldnt be recognizeable today and thats a shame.


What happened since 1931 was that the AKC, in your words, "contrived"and "made up" to seperate and distinguish dogs so that they could be awarded 1st, 2nd and 3rd place as well as to segregate those genes in those top dogs so they could be bred and improve the breed. They've done a pretty good job!
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:20 pm

I have never understood how anyone could think a British hunting test superior to an American field trial. I've always thought the British trials are highly touted to make up for the deficiencies in the British labs.

They cannot mark as well, they apparently can't be trained as well, and they don't have the bottom. I saw enough while I lived in Canada and competed up there to know I'd never want to own another one. Nor do I know why anyone would. Some people say they're calmer. To me, that translates to a lack of desire. I've hunted a LOT of field trial dogs out of duck blinds, always with more than one. I never had one that clients didn't think was the finest dog they'd ever been in a blind with.

When I watch the retriever series on ESPN and see the creeping, whining and lack of manners displayed, it disgusts me. Those actions though are a lack of competent training, not a lack of competent breeding.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Tyler Radke » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:56 pm

so what you're saying is that a form of field trial that hasn't changed in over a hundred years is superior to the American field trial format which adapts to changing times and better dogs and training techniques? that's kind of like saying lining up in a line and shooting muskets at 20 feet is a better way to wage war. And what you British call hunting is far from it. Just saying.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby copterdoc » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:11 pm

Doesn't a dog that wins a British Trial, typically do so without being required even once, to place a paw into water?
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby GarDuck » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:32 pm

The OP has made it fairly clear he is more interested in posting one sided articles than having and encouraging a real discussion. However I disagree with enough statements made here that I will waste my breath.
The argument that our dogs came in 5th therefore are inferior is just stupid.

Martin Deeley a Brit /class act and part of the American team remarked that a huge component for American pups struggles were the brambles which release a toxin that the European dogs were all exposed to in moderate amounts throughout they're entire lives thus giving their pups a tolerance that ours do not possess.

Also it is a game that the dogs were bred to compete in so hopefully they would be superior just as our dogs are bred for our games and outperform British dogs in our games. Even when they are trained for American trials they're entire lives which none of the American dogs that competed in England were by the way.

Well US games are contrived and theres is a real hunt therefore they're dogs are better hunters. Personally my hunts don't look anything like the classy affair that British trials appear to be. I hunt ducks and I hunt geese in rice country my dogs must be capable of handling significant marks over long distances and run long difficult blinds. A clipped goose shot 45 yards in the air in flat country will sail a whole lot farther than clipped pheasant in rolling hills (not that pheasants won't run and make for difficult retrieves). My dogs must deal with situations that are more closely replicated by US trials than British ones.

Another factor to Consider before ranking Brits as top dog the size of the gene pool and the competition. Have you ever thought of the unbelievable difference in sheer size of the US in comparison to Britain. We have more hunters more competitions and more labs by virtue of our size. Our top national dogs have to compete with dogs from all over the US in order to be considered the best.

They're height or lack thereof also makes it harder for them to mark in medium to tall cover and for them to be seen/see you whilst running blinds.

Now I wouldn't go as far as gonehuntin and say that they're turds as I've seen several spectacular British Labs(mine). I believe they're temperament and natural skills exist on a spectrum just like American labs.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby GarDuck » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:47 pm

Also as far as live birds and cripples have you been to a us hunt test or trial? Are you familiar with the term live flyer I'm sure several folks on this forum could share a a live flyer related story with you. Then again you would have to take the time to consider their opinions.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby copterdoc » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:48 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:....But again, it was a real hunt.
However, it wasn't a real test.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby copterdoc » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:15 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:If you check the results, I mean really look at them, the USA wasnt even close.
578 to 642 for the winning score. We did edge out a few powerhouses like Canada, Italy and Austria.
Moral victory for you and America?
We tied for 4th place, in an International Retriever competition, that we had never before competed in at any level.

And we did so with our unruly, hyperactive, and selectively bred American Retrievers.

I'd like to know how many centuries it would take for one of the other teams to do the same, at one of our Nationals.

American Retrievers have no peer. We dominate the game to a point that we need a tougher game than can be found in "a day's hunt."

If you are happy with your game, I'm happy for you.
But, don't crap on the game that you aren't even willing to play.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:18 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:
When I watch the retriever series on ESPN and see the creeping, whining and lack of manners displayed, it disgusts me. Those actions though are a lack of competent training, not a lack of competent breeding.


Another gem by Gonehuntin. None are so blind as those that refuse to see.

As if breeding hot bred trial dogs to hot bred dogs doesnt carry with it some baggage, neurosis and temperment issues!!!
Thanks for the comedy, mate.

:)


I see just fine. I competed for years with those dog, producing four field champions, 18 QOA's, and four on the National Derby List. Of all those dogs, plus a lot more I didn't compete with, once ONE was a whiner and creeper, a female from Benji. I loved and thrived on the incredible brilliance, desire, and ability of these dogs. In Canada I saw a slug of Canadian (British) Labs. I didn't like the build, I didn't like the laid back, lackadaisical attitude, and I especially didn't like the fact that American Labs kicked my butt.

I have never understood hoe anyone can think a dog superior that lacks desire, ability, and intelligence simply because the dog is supposedly calmer and easier to work with. Garbage. If a dog can't beat another dog one on one, he's an inferior animal. Same as a racehorse, racing dog, coon hound, fox hound, or beagle. Competition breeds greatness, meeting a standard results in mediocracy.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:28 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:But again, it was a real hunt.


No, it was not. The event they competed in was a series of "contrived," to use your term, tests held in May, not a trial, which could only be held during their open hunting season.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby goodkarmarising » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:49 pm

Aw ww....ain't it cute. All the play hunt boys are seeing who can piss the hardest.
Only number that matters, retrieves by the pup: 176
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby goodkarmarising » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:59 pm

I find it hilarious that you think shooting 50 birds is a huge amount of birds to clean up and need a chain gang of labs to do it with.
Only number that matters, retrieves by the pup: 176
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby copterdoc » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:01 pm

DWTurnipseed wrote:Yea, the USA tried that a few years ago when they competed, and 4 other nations pissed alot harder, further and better...

Three. Not four.
We didn't come in fifth. We tied for fourth. Competing not against dogs, but the best dogs of entire countries. And it was us playing THEIR game.

The first and last time that we bothered to play it.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:04 pm

Doesn't matter, was only a contrived test, anyway. Not a real trial/hunt.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:11 pm

Well, at least we went there and got a fourth. You won't even attempt to come here and compete. Even the Brit. Dogs bred here can't compete with our Yanky labs.

Just think how much better the DD and every other breed would be if they DID compete with each other, where there could actually be a BEST dog, not simply a herd of dogs that met a standard. Such a shame. A standard can produce a great breed, but only one one one competition can make that breed magnificent. I am really surprised you can't see that.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby GarDuck » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:52 pm

Well that does it I'm convinced.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:54 pm

Was it the cows that broke you over?
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby CatSquirrel » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:18 pm

Well, this thread is rather comical.

Troll city....
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby Tyler Radke » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:28 pm

I'm still trying to figure out how you consider standing in a line 12 wide and shooting birds hunting. You consider a dog who whines and creeps at the line garbage, we call that drive and love it when a dog shows that much enthusiasm for retrieving. You think our breeding makes crap dogs by making the best better and leaving the sub par behind? That's because we don't like average, we want the best not the best average. Our field trials our made up and unrealistic? Well that's because we had to make it harder than a typical hunt because our field trial dogs consider an average hunt a warm up and we would have to hand out blue ribbons to everyone. Your dogs are bred to play your games ( no matter how rediculous we think they are) and ours are bred to play the American games. Its especially funny how you are trash talking our dogs when they tied with england in points playing by British rules.
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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby TomKat » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:40 pm

The play hunt girls are always a lot of fun on here.

I figure this brit is the english version of copterdoc.

My dogs better than yours! Blah blah blah.



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Re: British Vs US Trials-Competition Results

Postby GarDuck » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:14 pm

I've always been a sucker for cows..
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