Beginning CC ...and soon FF

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Beginning CC ...and soon FF

Postby SC_YellowDawg » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:46 pm

I just got a Garmin Delta e-collar and have started putting it on the dog to wear when he's outside the kennel this week (before you ask, no of course it's not on or even charged). My dog is a 7mo male yellow lab. He has lost all baby teeth but still has a few adults pushing through. I plan to do all training myself due to my financial situation and have a few questions.

I know y'all will probably just say "buy a program"...that's the easy answer. I have done lots of reading (yea, including Water Dog by Richard Woltars) watched countless videos online (Freddy King's series was great, every video on Evan Graham's channel is really helpful, and many others). I do plan to get a program just have not decided yet (between Total Retriever and SmartWorks right now but that's another topic but any recommendations are welcome).

While I decide on what program to follow I wanted to CC and begin formalizing obedience commands with the collar. However I have a few questions:

1. Should a choke chain be introduced before the e-collar? Up to this point 90% of training has just been positive reinforcement (praise & treats) with only light leash pressure when I have to say the command a second time, usually around distractions.

2. What age to begin FF? I've heard 6-7mo so you get it done before they get to big (easier to control if they try to fight pressure). I've also heard it shouldn't be done before their first birthday.....

3. Prerequisite skills to CC or FF? He's solid on obedience (sit, down, here, heel, place) in the house and good with here, sit, down with distractions...still working on heel and place with distractions.

4. Also what's the point of FF on an elevated table? Seems like an extra step so you don't have to bend over or kneel to train, why not just start on the ground? I only ask because I don't have anything like that to use and if it makes no difference would rather do it on the ground.

Any info/ advice y'all can share is much appreciate. Don't think I said it but if you can't tell, I'm new to this game and want to train my dog to be the best he can be. Thanks.
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Re: Beginning CC ...and soon FF

Postby TCFarmer » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:52 pm

SC_YellowDawg wrote:I just got a Garmin Delta e-collar and have started putting it on the dog to wear when he's outside the kennel this week (before you ask, no of course it's not on or even charged). My dog is a 7mo male yellow lab. He has lost all baby teeth but still has a few adults pushing through. I plan to do all training myself due to my financial situation and have a few questions.

I know y'all will probably just say "buy a program"...that's the easy answer. I have done lots of reading (yea, including Water Dog by Richard Woltars) watched countless videos online (Freddy King's series was great, every video on Evan Graham's channel is really helpful, and many others). I do plan to get a program just have not decided yet (between Total Retriever and SmartWorks right now but that's another topic but any recommendations are welcome).


Whichever program you decide on I would think about adding Evan's FF and Lardy's CC programs to your collection.

While I decide on what program to follow I wanted to CC and begin formalizing obedience commands with the collar. However I have a few questions:

1. Should a choke chain be introduced before the e-collar? Up to this point 90% of training has just been positive reinforcement (praise & treats) with only light leash pressure when I have to say the command a second time, usually around distractions.

I would use the choke chain before introducing the e-collar. Your dog needs to understand a command is to be obeyed the first time it is given.

2. What age to begin FF? I've heard 6-7mo so you get it done before they get to big (easier to control if they try to fight pressure). I've also heard it shouldn't be done before their first birthday.....

It really depends on the dog. I would make sure he is no longer teething and obedience is solid before moving to FF.

3. Prerequisite skills to CC or FF? He's solid on obedience (sit, down, here, heel, place) in the house and good with here, sit, down with distractions...still working on heel and place with distractions.

See above

4. Also what's the point of FF on an elevated table? Seems like an extra step so you don't have to bend over or kneel to train, why not just start on the ground? I only ask because I don't have anything like that to use and if it makes no difference would rather do it on the ground.

Any info/ advice y'all can share is much appreciate. Don't think I said it but if you can't tell, I'm new to this game and want to train my dog to be the best he can be. Thanks.


Most people I know skip the table. It is a back saver used mostly by those with bad backs and/or those who FF a lot of dogs.
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Re: Beginning CC ...and soon FF

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:42 pm

If you get the program, you won't be asking these questions. The collar only is a reinforcement for thoroughly taught commands. Train the dog first on a least and collar, then when he's completely obedience trained and ff'd, add the ecollar.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
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Re: Beginning CC ...and soon FF

Postby CatSquirrel » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:01 pm

One investment I would recommend getting is Volume I of the Lardy training articles. Its only about $30 and well worth it.

I generally take a "layered" approach with OB. What I mean by that is to teach basic OB with treats, etc. as a young pup. Then come back to the skill set with a choke chain (just gently pop it) and a heeling stick. Then come back yet again with a pinch collar to really proof the skill set. I do this using Lardy's program.

Then FF followed by CC'ing. At the end of CC'ing I revisit FF and teach Collar Fetch.
Pretty much straight off the flow chart in the Lardy articles.

You can also use the tailgate of a truck as your "table".
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Re: Beginning CC ...and soon FF

Postby dogyak » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:12 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:If you get the program, you won't be asking these questions. The collar only is a reinforcement for thoroughly taught commands. Train the dog first on a least and collar, then when he's completely obedience trained and ff'd, add the ecollar.
I approve this statement . LOL . Just poking fun here a little . But for real , Gonehuntin hit the nail right on the point . "GET A PROGRAM" :thumbsup:
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Re: Beginning CC ...and soon FF

Postby usmcduckn » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:27 pm

i bought retriever training by tom dokken when i first started with my pup. personally, i felt his program worked amazingly. not only does he instruct you what to do, but he gives you rough mile markers (pups age) at which to accomplish these lessons, what tools you'll need to do it, the prerequisites for doing each task, and what to do if the pup doesn't seem to get it. books only $20 but mines seen 4 family and friend pup owners and all of their dogs have turned out pretty well (minus any mistakes they made as trainers).
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