Report from the Trainer

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:47 pm

Duck_Popper wrote:That's the biggest thing she kept saying, she needs me out there because I need to learn my dog. I need to see and watch her movements and learn what they mean and create a language between us.


Take the time and do this ^^^^!!!

For someone new into dog training (or who has trained dogs before but are trying to move to more advanced training skills - both dog and handler), there is nothing more valuble to YOUR training than to have a trainer / mentor (who does know training) to stand behind you and coach you as YOU work with your dog. It will be time very well spent!!
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:41 pm

Dakota Creek wrote:
Duck_Popper wrote:That's the biggest thing she kept saying, she needs me out there because I need to learn my dog. I need to see and watch her movements and learn what they mean and create a language between us.


Take the time and do this ^^^^!!!

For someone new into dog training (or who has trained dogs before but are trying to move to more advanced training skills - both dog and handler), there is nothing more valuble to YOUR training than to have a trainer / mentor (who does know training) to stand behind you and coach you as YOU work with your dog. It will be time very well spent!!


I plan on it. Definitely putting miles on the truck going to and from, but I know it is pennies to the big picture.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Blackfeet Retrievers » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:42 pm

dudejcb wrote:
Dakota Creek wrote:I know several people who train to an extremely high standard - multiple GMHRCH titled dogs that also hunt like crazy, so I am not saying that FF can't be done without a collar.

FF is not strictly about having a dog that "always wants to fetch". The FF process is taught to teach a dog how to turn pressure off ... whether that pressure is a verbal correction "NO", a physical correction (ear pinch / toe pinch) or e-collar stimulation. Having the dog fetch on command is not FF .... that is simply telling the dog to fetch and the dog is complying. You need to add some sort of pressure to the exercise so the dog realizes that if it complies the "pressure" is turned off.

Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.

I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to work with and needed to get them all to trial standards I'd go with an e-collar. But I'm not a professional trainer and all of my dogs have been excellent hunting dogs nonetheless.

Milner has a good discussion of FF and agrees with my approach to hunting dog training. http://fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php


Milner agrees with your approach to hunting dog training :huh: I'm sure that was just a slip of the finger, right??
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:02 pm

Blackfeet Retrievers wrote:
dudejcb wrote:
Dakota Creek wrote:I know several people who train to an extremely high standard - multiple GMHRCH titled dogs that also hunt like crazy, so I am not saying that FF can't be done without a collar.

FF is not strictly about having a dog that "always wants to fetch". The FF process is taught to teach a dog how to turn pressure off ... whether that pressure is a verbal correction "NO", a physical correction (ear pinch / toe pinch) or e-collar stimulation. Having the dog fetch on command is not FF .... that is simply telling the dog to fetch and the dog is complying. You need to add some sort of pressure to the exercise so the dog realizes that if it complies the "pressure" is turned off.

Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.

I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to work with and needed to get them all to trial standards I'd go with an e-collar. But I'm not a professional trainer and all of my dogs have been excellent hunting dogs nonetheless.

Milner has a good discussion of FF and agrees with my approach to hunting dog training. http://fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php


Milner agrees with your approach to hunting dog training :huh: I'm sure that was just a slip of the finger, right??
No slip of the finger. I had never heard of Milner until I did a Google search the other day. I've had my approach to training my dogs for at least thirty years, so yes, it's my approach ... and apparently Milner's too. If you read what he says in the link I provided you might better understand what I was alluding to ... that most of us, training our dogs for our personal hunting and not worrying about tests, trials, or showmanship, generally do not need to do a lot of force training. That said there are always exceptions and I've done it a few times when necessary.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:28 am

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Duck Popper: Congrats man and guess you need to change your name to "Duck Poppa"

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:30 am

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Duck Popper: Congrats man and guess you need to change your name to "Duck Poppa"

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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:20 am

[quote="dudejcb"][quote="Dakota Creek"]
Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations. [quote]

How is it possible to "over train a dog?
Last edited by gonehuntin' on Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Blackfeet Retrievers » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:20 am

dudejcb wrote:
Blackfeet Retrievers wrote:
dudejcb wrote:
Dakota Creek wrote:I know several people who train to an extremely high standard - multiple GMHRCH titled dogs that also hunt like crazy, so I am not saying that FF can't be done without a collar.

FF is not strictly about having a dog that "always wants to fetch". The FF process is taught to teach a dog how to turn pressure off ... whether that pressure is a verbal correction "NO", a physical correction (ear pinch / toe pinch) or e-collar stimulation. Having the dog fetch on command is not FF .... that is simply telling the dog to fetch and the dog is complying. You need to add some sort of pressure to the exercise so the dog realizes that if it complies the "pressure" is turned off.

Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.

I also know that FF is about more than fetching and holding, and is a negative incentive, which flies in the face of simply showing the dog what pleases you and what doesn't the old fashioned way. I suppose if I were a trainer and had multiple dogs to work with and needed to get them all to trial standards I'd go with an e-collar. But I'm not a professional trainer and all of my dogs have been excellent hunting dogs nonetheless.

Milner has a good discussion of FF and agrees with my approach to hunting dog training. http://fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php


Milner agrees with your approach to hunting dog training :huh: I'm sure that was just a slip of the finger, right??
No slip of the finger. I had never heard of Milner until I did a Google search the other day. I've had my approach to training my dogs for at least thirty years, so yes, it's my approach ... and apparently Milner's too. If you read what he says in the link I provided you might better understand what I was alluding to ... that most of us, training our dogs for our personal hunting and not worrying about tests, trials, or showmanship, generally do not need to do a lot of force training. That said there are always exceptions and I've done it a few times when necessary.


Milner's only been doing it 40 plus years, so ok, it's your approach. You probably taught Rex Carr everything he knew also. :lol3: After all, that's where Lardy, Rorem, Eckett, Farmer, etc. all got there training basis program from. I tip my hat to you sir. :thumbsup:
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:19 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
dudejcb wrote:
Dakota Creek wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.

How is it possible to "over train a dog?


Not my quote as you left my name in on the "quotes you quoted" This quote belongs to dudjcb!
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:16 am

Dakota Creek wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
dudejcb wrote:
Dakota Creek wrote:Yes, I understand the a lot of people like to over train their hunting dogs for some reason rather than try to develop their natural instincts and native intelligence. Not sure why that is other than a "control" thing. It's true that over-trained trial dogs hunt like crazy, but for me it's a lot of added effort for no real gain in most hunting situations.

How is it possible to "over train a dog?


Not my quote as you left my name in on the "quotes you quoted" This quote belongs to dudjcb!


I apologize; irritates me when someone does that to me.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dudejcb » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:44 pm

Blackfeet Retrievers wrote:Milner's only been doing it 40 plus years, so ok, it's your approach. You probably taught Rex Carr everything he knew also. :lol3: After all, that's where Lardy, Rorem, Eckett, Farmer, etc. all got there training basis program from. I tip my hat to you sir. :thumbsup:
Did I say I'm the only person with this approach, or that I was the first to come to this conclusion? No. All I said was that I came to it on my own ... a long time ago. If that bothers you, seek help.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:19 pm

Well the trainer said she is doing great. She is on live fliers. Not resisting. And pushing straight on through. I am going to pick her up on Saturday and going to do a controlled hunt with her on Sunday. I am going to go out late with her and hunt from 11-1. Go to one of the blinds that shoots spoonies. I am so excited and the family misses her so much.

There will be a go pro rolling when I go see her and do the whole session Saturday.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:54 pm

Duck_Popper wrote:
There will be a go pro rolling when I go see her and do the whole session Saturday.


I'm not a go pro guy but it seems you've deserved a film. Have fun.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby dogyak » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:04 pm

have fun :biggrin:
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:32 pm

We just got done with the session today....... Wow I am do proud of my girl. She is a different dog from 2 weeks ago. She is driving hard, going through the force work with ease, taking the pressure, not resisting, and holding the bird on retrieves.

I shot 4 live fliers over her, she only broke once. Release on her name. From a heeling position on 2 and from her "place" dog blind. Really excited for tomorrow. Definitely not shooting. Going to focus strictly on her.

She gave me a lot of do's and dont's.

I ask you guys...... Is there anything YOU ALL can tell me that I should watch out for on other than #1, which is safety.

We are hunting rice, she will be in the dog blind, and I will be the closest tank to her Holding on to her lead ;not staked in. 2 other shooters. One of the shooters will have their dog.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Dakota Creek » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:18 pm

Duck_Popper wrote:Definitely not shooting. Going to focus strictly on her.
. :thumbsup:

And remind me ..... Who was that guy that was thinking things weren't working and was all set to bring the dog home??? :biggrin:

Have fun tomorrow!!
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:37 pm

Haha thanks Dakota. You really have been positive with your words. I appreciate it. I do have one question. ......

Tomorrow in the blind, I have the e collar on her, do I also put the pinch collar with the lead attached to that? Like the trainer had it. Or attach the lead to her normal collar or the e collar??
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:15 pm

Duck_Popper wrote:Haha thanks Dakota. You really have been positive with your words. I appreciate it. I do have one question. ......

Tomorrow in the blind, I have the e collar on her, do I also put the pinch collar with the lead attached to that? Like the trainer had it. Or attach the lead to her normal collar or the e collar??


If you will be in a true hunting situation, ditch the pinch collar and run the lead on her regular collar, NEVER the ecollar. Unless you're very, very, confident in your abilities with that ecollar, I also highly recommend you leave the collar shut off and your gun at home, have ONLY ONE person shoot at a time, and devote the day to showing the dog what to do in a true hunting situation. It was only a couple of weeks ago you were having so much trouble so be aware that every inch you've gained in the las t month or more can be lost in one day at a blind if you handle the situations incorrectly.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:07 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Duck_Popper wrote:Haha thanks Dakota. You really have been positive with your words. I appreciate it. I do have one question. ......

Tomorrow in the blind, I have the e collar on her, do I also put the pinch collar with the lead attached to that? Like the trainer had it. Or attach the lead to her normal collar or the e collar??


If you will be in a true hunting situation, ditch the pinch collar and run the lead on her regular collar, NEVER the ecollar. Unless you're very, very, confident in your abilities with that ecollar, I also highly recommend you leave the collar shut off and your gun at home, have ONLY ONE person shoot at a time, and devote the day to showing the dog what to do in a true hunting situation. It was only a couple of weeks ago you were having so much trouble so be aware that every inch you've gained in the las t month or more can be lost in one day at a blind if you handle the situations incorrectly.


Man I'm nervous as crap. It wasn't 10 months ago I felt this same feeling waiting for my daughter be born.
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Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:21 pm

Well folks. The goal was accomplished and I am so proud of my girl. Image
Image

It wasn't all perfect but I made it fun.

I woke up about 6 am and took teal outside to get introduced to the new dog blind. We did an obedience check for a bit to establish her trust in me and respect. Did force work. Then spent about 15 min on "place" dog blind. Put her up to play out back and feed her. Before we left about 9 am we did "place" once more.

Loaded everything up:
1 gun
Dog
Blind bag
Dog bag
First aid bag
Dog blind
Frozen training duck

Headed to the blind which shoot time ends for our club at 1:00. Met my buddy off baseline and got to the blind about 10.

To my surprise the whole club was still there which meant nobody cared about the Patriots vs Broncos and also all the blinds would still be full. Ended up picking a blind which we saw birds working on Wednesday and nobody chose in the morning at pick time.

We loaded up my quad with everything and boy was it tough.

Had me-my buddy-Teal-Dog blind-gun-splasher flasher 2-higdon pulsator 2-backpack- blind bag-3 blind covers.

But we managed and hoofed it down the check. Teal was playing in the water while we were loadin up our backs but once we walked to the check I said "heel" and she never left my knee the whole way.

Got to the blind. Dressed it up. Set the dog blind up. Messed with the decoys and set up the toys.

It wasn't 5 minutes and 2 widgeon were out fluttering around and came right over us. My buddy raised up and shot once and blew feathers then shot again and I heard the shot hit the bird again, but I told him to stop and the bird never fell. So I hucked the frozen mallard I had into the water and she went out and grabbed it and brought it back. I gave her some praise. Only thing was is she broke like a son of a gun. I held onto the lead but the dog blind went with her. After his second shot I let her go and she was off looking for something to fall. That's when I threw the bird. The trainer told me if she breaks don't restrain her unless it is an unsafe break where she is running towards the gunner. Not to harp on the breaking on the first hunt. Later yes.

We sat for a bit and I was trying to get teal to stay in her place and as I was looking over at her I see 3 spoons come in 10 yards and I tell my buddy some broken English because of excitement but basically to shoot and he did and missed. Threw the frozen duck again for her and she got it and brought it back. Gave her some good girls.

Then we saw 2 pintail working and floating around with each other. They were hugging the road side 99 and then might a hard right down our check. Coming straight into my buddy. I told my buddy ash, just relax, pick one bird out, raise up, aim right at the head and shoot. He was using my gun and shells, which he has never used, so I knew if I was talking the shot how I would do it. (Haha we laughed about it after, he said thanks coach, I said anytime son)

I turned around to look at teal and quietly told her sit.....sit....... Ash raise up. Teal jumped up. Ash shot. Hit the bird. Fired once more to hammer it down. I yelled mark. And the bird hit the water. I yelled teal and off she went. The bird was still a bit alive and it didnt stop her. I hopped out of the blind and stood on the check. She fetched that sucker up and I was saying good girl. Here. Hold hold. Hold. And she brought it right to me. Didnt drop it. I said give and she let it go. I gave her a bunch of love and guess what...... The whole thing is on go pro. Hopefully will get it cropped and edited tonight. It has some pretty funny commentary because I was messing with ash. He picked the most difficult of the 2 and to top it off it was the hen. The Drake was right above him.

Anyway thanks again everyone.

I have some work to do:

She keeps wanting to lay on me in the blind and not stay in her place. She will just come over and try to crawl in like a lap dog. I didn't know how strong to be with her but I did nick her after saying place twice with no pressure, I did give pressure once she was not listening. I figured it was okay since she did know what "place" meant. She worked on it at the trainers and we did it that morning. So I felt the pressure was just.

She also is breaking, which I know how to fix with time and training.

She is picking up the decoys when we were throwing them and changing the spread.

Other than those 3 things I feel confident with the foundation I have to work on.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:13 pm

She's a hunting dog, leaning against you is just bonding and in my mind, not a fault.

I''d let her break and have fun; steady her after the season.

Teach her to leave the decoys in your yard by setting some on the grass and throwing the bumper or duck among them. if she picks up a decoy slap it out of her mouth, tell her no, and put a bumper in here mouth. not much to it. If she inspects a decoy on the wat to a duck, that's normal. If they can fool a duck, they can fool a young dog. She'll learn.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby Duck_Popper » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:54 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:She's a hunting dog, leaning against you is just bonding and in my mind, not a fault.

I''d let her break and have fun; steady her after the season.

Teach her to leave the decoys in your yard by setting some on the grass and throwing the bumper or duck among them. if she picks up a decoy slap it out of her mouth, tell her no, and put a bumper in here mouth. not much to it. If she inspects a decoy on the wat to a duck, that's normal. If they can fool a duck, they can fool a young dog. She'll learn.


Great advice. Is this similar to the ladder drill? Or different?

Thanks again.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:09 am

You could do it like a ladder dril, but I personally don't. I start out with a few widely spaced decoys on the lawn and throw a bumper in the middle. I work up to where I can put two dozen decoys on the yard, throw the bumper in the middle of them and have the dog retrieve it. Whole thing can be done in a day on the lawn, a day on the water. I try to keep it fun. If the dog picks up a decoy I say no slap it out of it's mouth, and immediately throw a fun bumper. They get the idea very fast.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby labsforme » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:06 pm

Duck, that is super. I personally don't like to let pups break at any point. I staked them out and didn't make a big deal of it until they were more along in their training. If you are asking her not to break in training why let her hunting? Creates bad habits down the road. I do the same thing as the others suggested when it comes to decoys. A long time ago I had a 15 month old pup that I had started and her mother had to be put down so she got to be the "dog". I did the yard training with decoys and bumpers etc. Doing great. Took her hunting with a training partner and the first duck shot she went out and picked up a decoy. Nope not a hard one but a Plasti-Duck that is made of the same material as the bumpers, sigh. Very embarrassing. After I walked her out ,showed her the bird ,and she got the bird she never picked up another decoy.
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Re: Report from the Trainer

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:09 pm

This dog was down in training to the point of being washed out. She is also very young. I suggested letting her break to get the momentum and fun back. It's easy to steady a dog but not so easy to put desire into them.
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