Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

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Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby dogs4life » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:44 am

There's no telling how many times this has been brought up, but I would just like some opinions.

Bout to FF a 1 year old lab in a couple of weeks and was wondering what works best for you guys? I know she's most likely gonna be a clammed just by what we've done already but I've seen some dogs clam big time on continuous then switch I momentary and it works...

I've seen in Duck Basics he uses momentary during FF and it seemed to work pretty damn good.

But I've seen pretty much everyone else use continuous.

So I guess my other question is do I want to five fetch her using DDB or SmartFetch?

Lemme hear what ya got!
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Duckdon » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:27 am

I use the continuous. Never the momentary. I adjust the length of my correction by reading my dog and the pressure comes off when the dog makes the correct response. If I want a short correction I just bump the button. In my humble opinion, it's not as much which mode is used, but the timing and the intensity of the correction that really counts the most. Just how I learned. Don
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:59 am

You guys talking post-ear pinch collar work?
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Duckdon » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:24 am

D4L
Did you read the sticky's above on FF?
I believe Hntfsh is heading that way. I just answered your basic question on which e-collar mode I use. With FF you don't start with an e-collar.
My suggestion on a ff program is, look at a few different ones and pick the one that you seem to understand best. I have used an e-collar since the late 60's but really did not know how to use it until I attended a Perfection Kennels seminar and had hands on coaching by a Pro.
If your dog is shutting down when you are using the collar it most likely reason is that it just does not understand the pressure and how to turn it off. Thus, the reason I use continuous. I teach the dog that if he makes the right move the pressure comes off. With the nick the pressure turns itself off...so how does the dog learn to shut off the pressure. Like I said, just how I learned and it seems to work for me.
I assume your dog is collar conditioned to "Here" already and if not 100% solid , that is where you need to start. \
Good Luck. Don
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:16 pm

Duckdon wrote:I believe Hntfsh is heading that way. I just answered your basic question on which e-collar mode I use. With FF you don't start with an e-collar.


Yea Don...couldn't tell by by the post if the OP meant he was beginning FF with the collar.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Morphsuit » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:19 pm

HNTFSH wrote:You guys talking post-ear pinch collar work?


Yes sir.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby dogs4life » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:27 pm

Duckdon wrote:D4L
Did you read the sticky's above on FF?
I believe Hntfsh is heading that way. I just answered your basic question on which e-collar mode I use. With FF you don't start with an e-collar.
My suggestion on a ff program is, look at a few different ones and pick the one that you seem to understand best. I have used an e-collar since the late 60's but really did not know how to use it until I attended a Perfection Kennels seminar and had hands on coaching by a Pro.
If your dog is shutting down when you are using the collar it most likely reason is that it just does not understand the pressure and how to turn it off. Thus, the reason I use continuous. I teach the dog that if he makes the right move the pressure comes off. With the nick the pressure turns itself off...so how does the dog learn to shut off the pressure. Like I said, just how I learned and it seems to work for me.
I assume your dog is collar conditioned to "Here" already and if not 100% solid , that is where you need to start. \
Good Luck. Don


Yes I have read it before and I'm talking about a dog that I'm going to FF soon. I've FF before using a different series. This time I want to try to find the best one for me. SmartFetch seems awesome but so does DDB because in those the dogs reach for the bumper so quick compared to some videos I've seen teaching it.

So continuous and momentary has no effect on the dog locking up right? It's just because you're to much pressure to soon?

I understand DDB the best but he nicks after he says FETCH. So I didn't know if that would cause problems later on or make things harder?

What about adding two programs together and doing it? Saying I used DDB HOLD method but finished the rest with SmartFetch, thy wouldn't hurt would it?

Also, I'm not sure if I should use the table or not. I can sit in a bucket with no problem. What's y'all's take on that?

PLEASE correct me on where I'm wrong I would love to learn from my mistakes!
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:39 pm

After all that I still can't tell if the collar pressure is AFTER you are done with ear pinch or in lieu of? Probably my fault.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:41 pm

Well...maybe it's not ALL my fault?

dogs4life wrote:I got a 1 year old lab. He's force fetched. He does absoulutely great with bumpers. He will hold them without mouthing until i say other wise. When I let him go for a duck he brings it back I say hold and he trys but he just drops it right at my feetand starts licking it and likes to mouth it a lot.

What should I do? Say no then ear pinch him to pick it up and say hold?
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby dogs4life » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:46 pm

HNTFSH wrote:After all that I still can't tell if the collar pressure is AFTER you are done with ear pinch or in lieu of? Probably my fault.


After ear pinch lol
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby dogs4life » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:48 pm

HNTFSH wrote:Well...maybe it's not ALL my fault?

dogs4life wrote:I got a 1 year old lab. He's force fetched. He does absoulutely great with bumpers. He will hold them without mouthing until i say other wise. When I let him go for a duck he brings it back I say hold and he trys but he just drops it right at my feetand starts licking it and likes to mouth it a lot.

What should I do? Say no then ear pinch him to pick it up and say hold?


Thats a different dog.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:57 pm

dogs4life wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:After all that I still can't tell if the collar pressure is AFTER you are done with ear pinch or in lieu of? Probably my fault.


After ear pinch lol


Great.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:58 pm

dogs4life wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:Well...maybe it's not ALL my fault?

dogs4life wrote:I got a 1 year old lab. He's force fetched. He does absoulutely great with bumpers. He will hold them without mouthing until i say other wise. When I let him go for a duck he brings it back I say hold and he trys but he just drops it right at my feetand starts licking it and likes to mouth it a lot.

What should I do? Say no then ear pinch him to pick it up and say hold?


Thats a different dog.


Good - I was legit confused. :-)
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Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby dogs4life » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:38 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
dogs4life wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:Well...maybe it's not ALL my fault?

dogs4life wrote:I got a 1 year old lab. He's force fetched. He does absoulutely great with bumpers. He will hold them without mouthing until i say other wise. When I let him go for a duck he brings it back I say hold and he trys but he just drops it right at my feetand starts licking it and likes to mouth it a lot.

What should I do? Say no then ear pinch him to pick it up and say hold?


Thats a different dog.


Good - I was legit confused. :-)


Haha. I wanna throw another question in here for ya. Bout ready to introduce whistle commands. She's sitting pretty much everyone I stop when we heel and she knows here pretty good. So what works best for whistle commands? Last time I did it I just give one tweet and said SIT right after when I stopped.

This time I'm thinking about just stopping and giving a tweet with a tug one the cord. What's works best? Thanks
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:48 pm

FWIW - There's a lot of self service capability on the more common questions that have been discussed if you type keywords in the Forum search box.

search.php?keywords=whistle+sit&fid[0]=11
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:11 pm

A lot depends on how much juice you're using. Higher intensities, you CAN only nick. Lower, you can use continuous. Personally, I prefer the nick. I like giving the dog a chance to perform the command and beat the stimulation.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby TCFarmer » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:13 pm

To the collar question, like Don I only use continuous mode. Changing the duration depending on the situation. Anything from a command then tap the button, to a command and apply pressure until the dog complies. Most of the time it is just a single tap.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Duckdon » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:56 pm

"I've seen in Duck Basics he uses momentary during FF and it seemed to work pretty damn good.

But I've seen pretty much everyone else use continuous.

So I guess my other question is do I want to five fetch her using DDB or SmartFetch?"

Dogs4life, It's been awhile since I looked at Duck Dog Basics but if I remember right Chris does use the momentary....bump..bump..bump..bump.. until he gets compliance. Then he shuts it off. Splitting hairs here, but that to me is continuous. Makes little difference as long as the timing is right IMO.


I don't know Smartfetch so can't comment.

Basically I learned to use an e-collar with Lardy's Total Retriever series and Duck Dog Basics. Toss in a few more books, a half dozen more DVD's and plenty of hands on "show and tell" from guy's with more experience than I. The real revelation was when I learned just how important timing is, in the sequence. Took Jon Hann, Perfection Kennels, to slap that one into my thick skull. Now I sort of do my own thing, a mix match of various programs and it works for me.

As far as a dog's quick response, I am FFing a year old DD right now and having a hard time beating him to the fetch. I am looking for ways to make him screw up so I can get in my corrections. Good Luck. Don
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby GarDuck » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:36 am

For me the only time the e collar comes into play is on a spit out when it is used continuously in conjunction with an ear pinch or as indirect pressure in which case a nick is used.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Labs » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:11 am

Sooo...I'm hearing a lot of mixed messages here on momentary or continuous for FF, and the answer lies within the EAR PINCH when teaching FF. Do you guys just pinch the ear real quick and let go, or do you pinch the ear UNTIL the bumper is in the mouth? Riight...you pinch until the bumper is in the mouth, so the dog KNOWS how to shut the pressure off. When transitioning from the ear pinch to the collar, the same applies....then during walking fetch and force to pile (FTP) the same applies...continuous until the bumper is in the mouth. You start on a low setting and move your way up...same with water force. Nicking during this part is doing nothing more than confusing the dog.

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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Griffdom » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:43 am

"You start on a low setting and move your way up...same with water force. Nicking during this part is doing nothing more than confusing the dog."

Just curious do you mean start low with continuous setting and move your way up in intensity? Do you mean that you do this until you get the dog to comply or is this a method to cause the dog to react more quickly as the intensity increases?
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Labs » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:07 am

Griffdom wrote:"You start on a low setting and move your way up...same with water force. Nicking during this part is doing nothing more than confusing the dog."

Just curious do you mean start low with continuous setting and move your way up in intensity?


When doing FTP and WF, yes, start with low continuous and work your way up in the intensity.

Griffdom wrote:Do you mean that you do this until you get the dog to comply or is this a method to cause the dog to react more quickly as the intensity increases?


I certainly hope that by the time you get here, you no longer are having issues with the dog complying with the FF...ie, holding a bird/bumper until told to let go. The dog reacting more quickly is a secondary result....momentum is what you are looking for in FTP...ie get the heck out there..., and in WF, when the dog hits the water, the pressure is shut off. The dog is taught that it needs to get in the water. Low continuous, moving to higher intensity shows the dog that water is it's friend and will shut off the pressure. Nicking at this point doesn't do anything to teach the dog that the water is shutting off the pressure. A couple of side effects of the water force, is that the dog will take more water when corrected "nicked" near water...making the nicks during swim-by more meaningful, as you have already taught the dog that more water is a good thing.

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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:33 pm

I don't agree with Labs on the water fetch. The only time I use continuous is in the very beginning of collar fetch following ear pinch and stick fetch. As soon as they are through that and I start working the intensity up. It in no way confuses the dog. He knows that on "fetch " or "back" he better drive for the object or another nick is coming. It's "back", nick, "back", nick, and so on. You are always giving the dog the chance to successfully complete the command. You end up with a happier, harder driving dog.

When moving to the higher intensities, if the dog doesn't go on high continuous, you can create a spinner. This rarely happens with the nick. Big nick fan here.
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby Labs » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:55 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I don't agree with Labs on the water fetch. The only time I use continuous is in the very beginning of collar fetch following ear pinch and stick fetch. As soon as they are through that and I start working the intensity up. It in no way confuses the dog. He knows that on "fetch " or "back" he better drive for the object or another nick is coming. It's "back", nick, "back", nick, and so on. You are always giving the dog the chance to successfully complete the command. You end up with a happier, harder driving dog.

When moving to the higher intensities, if the dog doesn't go on high continuous, you can create a spinner. This rarely happens with the nick. Big nick fan here.


So...for your Water Force, what are you teaching the dog then, if you only give a back nick back? You didn't force the dog on the water AT ALL, your just hoping that the FTP work translates over to the water....many times it doesn't. And for the record, WF starts with low intensity and your work your way up to a visible sound/reaction from the dog. You may only go up to a high 2 or a mid 3...depends on the dog. Then you continue your way back DOWN. You don't take the intensity to the highest level of the collar.

To each their own, tho...I got two plenty happy dogs that actually liked FF, FTP, and WF, from what I could tell. Run blinds with the same style and intensity as going out for a mark....got no complaints about my results, and if your happy with how your dogs turn out, then that's good.... :wink:
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Re: Force Fetch Continuous vs Momentary

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:04 pm

Labs wrote:So...for your Water Force, what are you teaching the dog then, if you only give a back nick back? You didn't force the dog on the water AT ALL, your just hoping that the FTP work translates over to the water....many times it doesn't.


That Is kind of a real jump in logic you've just made there pardner. The only difference in continuous and intermittent is that in the nick you're pressuring the dog then giving it a chance to respond. In continuous the dog can never beat the stimulation until it gets to the goal. Might not seem like it to you, but there's really quite a difference in the two. When or if you train with the upper intensities, say 5 or 6, continuous creates a tail tucked pig.


Labs wrote: And for the record, WF starts with low intensity and your work your way up to a visible sound/reaction from the dog. You may only go up to a high 2 or a mid 3...depends on the dog. Then you continue your way back DOWN. You don't take the intensity to the highest level of the collar.


Maybe you don't, but I sure as Hell do. I want that dog to be able to work through correction at any level. If you don't do that in conditioning, you won't be able to effectively do it later when a real problem in behavior or fundamentals surfaces. You are making a huge mistake by not MAKING a dog work to higher intensities so they can be used later if needed.

Labs wrote: To each their own, tho...I got two plenty happy dogs that actually liked FF, FTP, and WF, from what I could tell. Run blinds with the same style and intensity as going out for a mark....got no complaints about my results, and if your happy with how your dogs turn out, then that's good.... :wink:


If your dogs were happy all the while they were in force, you didn't do it correctly.
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