retrieve issue

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retrieve issue

Postby metalworx » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:20 pm

my dog is a high energy male, ff, cc, fully trained and all around excellent at most all commands
my issue i am having is when i work with him, using bumpers he always has to slightly run into me or touch me with the bumper when he returns, he will not stop before he gets to me, he has to bump me with it as he turns, also he usually will step on my foot upon return (thats how close he gets) as he touches me with the bumper, trying to stay somewhat clean when i work him is useless.

if i throw a fun bumper he will come back wide open and run into me a little harder
i am concerned about using the collar to correct this as i do not want to mess up his desire to retrieve
other than him slightly touching me on regular bumper returns he does excellent, just would like him to return and calmly heal and sit on his own.

any advice is appreciated.
Last edited by metalworx on Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby tenfingergrip » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:37 pm

You don't want to juice him with a bumper in his mouth. I would take a partition (folded cardboard box, pet gate, piece of plywood,etc) to place beside me on his heeling side as he returns on a retrieve. Dogs learn by conditioned responses so that behavior has been ingrained by repetition. By not allowing it for awhile (or a long time)and getting him used to not touching you with the device between you, you should be able to condition him to keep his appropriate distance. Maybe a try? It's not just young clumsiness is it?
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby metalworx » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:39 pm

no clumsiness, he is mature and all around excellent dog, just seems to heel to close, and when you first let him out he brings it back like he is on Crack or something, after he gets the edge off it is not as bad but he still brings it so close either his nose or the bumper is going to touch you and he is going to step on your foot

sounds like a very good idea, i will give it a try

thanks
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby Jarbo03 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:53 pm

That is a great drill to try, hope it works. Overall though, I wouldn't put too much time or work into it, definitely no pressure or corrections. Sounds like you have a great dog, choose your battles wisely. Let us know how it works. :thumbsup:
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:54 pm

metalworx wrote:no clumsiness, he is mature and all around excellent dog, just seems to heel to close, and when you first let him out he brings it back like he is on Crack or something, after he gets the edge off it is not as bad but he still brings it so close either his nose or the bumper is going to touch you and he is going to step on your foot

sounds like a very good idea, i will give it a try

thanks


Did you train this dog or did someone else? Mine tried the same thing and was met with a knee, a No, and my stepping on his feet, consistently cured it. I knew it was a dominance attempt.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby cn44 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:35 pm

He ain't stepping on your foot by accident. He knows he's doing it and trying to show he's the boss. Step back on his foot if he does it.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby metalworx » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:37 pm

He is 5 and I didn't train him
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:53 pm

Agree with HNTFSH and Tenfinger. On the same token you don't want to discourage pup from getting to your side in confidence. I'd also try getting a bumper in pups mouth HOLDING from a front sIt and HEEL his smart aleck little arse to your side -

REPS-

Swing him out as he approaches away from you and bring him right on up beside you on a long leash or a short checkcord... (the little bashtard) :lol3:
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:09 am

When the Riparian pup was young hell, he'd full throttle gallop up from behind and clip me. Put me on the ground once. :lol3: He thought it a ton of fun.

Step on foot, bump leg on return, do a 180 leap on a hand delivery at side and lean into leg. That was fun too for his dumbarse.

All those got fixed in training.

Don't ever ignore things like this. It all has a higher meaning even if you don't know why albeit it's important to know why. Some things are just in a dogs nature and it doesn't make them bad or evil but unattended, leads to the undesirable.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby TomKat » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:00 am

When a dog means NO means no, a nic at the right time can be a very good training tool.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby copterdoc » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:09 am

TomKat wrote:When a dog means NO means no, a nic at the right time can be a very good training tool.
And a nick at the wrong time, can easily cause new problems that you never even considered.

The e-collar isn't for punishment.
It has to be reinforcing something, in order to correct something else.

Otherwise, it punishes EVERYTHING that the dog is doing at the time.
Regardless of the dog's understanding of "NO means NO".
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby TomKat » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:25 am

I agree with you.

That's why the timing is so important.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby copterdoc » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:30 am

TomKat wrote:...That's why the timing is so important.
It's also why formal OB, CC, FF, FTP, and waterforce/swim-by is so important.

Your timing may be impeccable.

But, if the dog doesn't understand the nick as reinforcement for what it was doing right, it will STILL blame the punishment on something that you want the dog to keep doing.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:56 am

TomKat wrote:I agree with you.

.

Holy turn of events Batman! Think I just soiled my
britches! :lol3:
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby TomKat » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:31 am

I dont disagree with the fact that the gruesome 2 some know a lot about dog training.

The approach on the forum has always been all of our problem.

But the Super Mod set all of us straight, I am willing to let bygones be bygones if everyone plays nice.

I am a get along kind of guy, after all :thumbsup:
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby TomKat » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:34 am

copterdoc wrote:
TomKat wrote:...That's why the timing is so important.
It's also why formal OB, CC, FF, FTP, and waterforce/swim-by is so important.

Your timing may be impeccable.

But, if the dog doesn't understand the nick as reinforcement for what it was doing right, it will STILL blame the punishment on something that you want the dog to keep doing.


I agree with most of that. I am not advocating nicking dogs just because I have a button. I built a very solid foundation in Brandy before I introduced a collar. My current collar has a vibrate function, which is all I use 99% of the time. Its more of a cue than anything.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby copterdoc » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:44 am

TomKat wrote:....Its more of a cue than anything.
And that's not what it should be.

The collar isn't supposed to give the commands.
It's supposed to be understood as reinforcement for the commands that you give.

The vibrate or beep feature doesn't apply pressure.
It doesn't reinforce anything. It simply becomes the command that the dog will obey.

The "solid foundation" that you built, was an understanding of words and gestures coming from you, that the dog learned to translate as cues.

A solid foundational prerequisite for the use of the e-collar, requires building an understanding of applied pressure as reinforcement of those understood words and gestures.

After that point, cues can be made into enforceable commands.

Until that point, those words and gestures are merely suggestions. And applied pressure is meaningless pain.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:07 am

HNTFSH wrote:
metalworx wrote:no clumsiness, he is mature and all around excellent dog, just seems to heel to close, and when you first let him out he brings it back like he is on Crack or something, after he gets the edge off it is not as bad but he still brings it so close either his nose or the bumper is going to touch you and he is going to step on your foot

sounds like a very good idea, i will give it a try

thanks


Did you train this dog or did someone else? Mine tried the same thing and was met with a knee, a No, and my stepping on his feet, consistently cured it. I knew it was a dominance attempt.


That's the correct and dirty answer. The collar will teach him nothing and only cause problems. Knee, step on toe. Harder he charges you, the harder you knee him.

Be sensible about this. Over do it, and you'll have trouble with him on heeling drills.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:59 am

TomKat wrote:I dont disagree with the fact that the gruesome 2 some know a lot about dog training.

The approach on the forum has always been all of our problem.

But the Super Mod set all of us straight, I am willing to let bygones be bygones if everyone plays nice.

I am a get along kind of guy, after all :thumbsup:

Cool.

copterdoc wrote:
TomKat wrote:....Its more of a cue than anything.
And that's not what it should be.

The collar isn't supposed to give the commands.
It's supposed to be understood as reinforcement for the commands that you give.

The vibrate or beep feature doesn't apply pressure.
It doesn't reinforce anything. It simply becomes the command that the dog will obey.

The "solid foundation" that you built, was an understanding of words and gestures coming from you, that the dog learned to translate as cues.

A solid foundational prerequisite for the use of the e-collar, requires building an understanding of applied pressure as reinforcement of those understood words and gestures.

After that point, cues can be made into enforceable commands.

Until that point, those words and gestures are merely suggestions. And applied pressure is meaningless pain.


Kat'- here's to hoping you got something out of this^^^^
'Cause it's spot on. :smile:
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby TomKat » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:46 pm

It could just be we speak different languages.

CopDr, can oyu say it in plain english for a country boy?
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:07 pm

TomKat wrote:It could just be we speak different languages.

CopDr, can oyu say it in plain english for a country boy?

...........................^^^ You'll have to go first 'Kat :lol3:
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby labman63 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:12 pm

I had a crasher once. Came back harder than he went. I fixed this with a whistle sit about 5 to 10 ft then calmly called him to heel. Your foot work is important. Step back with heeling side foot and hold your hand out as if opening a door for a lady. After awhile it will click where he is to come to heel.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby UK Springer » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:09 pm

Gun dogs online the lesson you want is taking an initil line.Your dog is not lining up on the return.
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby metalworx » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:39 pm

Thx
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Re: retrieve issue

Postby Labs » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:20 am

Part of the issue that you are having with the hound was caused by his initial training. This behavior was caused by the e collar, in his early training. If you talk to your trainer, I'm guessing he FORCED the dog to HEEL during his OB training...Just like during the FF training, the dog ends up trying to beat the collar...here, the dog barrels back to you to beat the collar. Some dogs will actually hit a person's thigh and use it as a pivot stick to get back to heel. There are a couple of ways to work through this, and some were already mentioned above.

1) work with the dog in the yard, no collar.
2) sit him at heel, make him sit there as you walk 10 - 15 yds away (may need to shorten so he doesn't have time to build up a head of steam) and command heel.
3) As he is coming in, take a step back with the leg on the side you heel on.
4) Step forward as he turns to come heel.
5) Increase the distance, and increase the stimuli...(add a bumper)

You can also whistle sit your dog when he gets to about 10 yds out to stop his momentum, then toot him into heel.
Another alternative, is have your back to a wall or holding blind, so the dog has something to run into, should he come barreling in...should stop his momentum on his own. Make damn sure he isn't stepping on your feet, that is a dominance issue, and that needs to be ended in a hurry.
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