Your joking right.....

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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby tknight006 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:18 am

razorback wrote:I watched a friend turn down that kind of money for his dog. Keep in mind not because she isn't for sale, but because she has a higher earning potential (barring incident) over the next 3-4 years.



Valid point, never really gave that any thought.

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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby copterdoc » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:29 am

There is really only one kind of person that stands to turn a profit by selling a dog that has begun to advance in training.
The Pro that owns it, and will get it back for more training.

However, there are plenty of dogs that are sold once started.
They are sold at a loss to the owner, for what two people can agree they are worth.

And both parties usually feel that they got a good deal, that they are both happy with.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby rivercountry » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:07 am

If I were you I would feel honored that a pro saw the value in the dedication and time you spent to make her what she is today. I also understand not selling your dog. I don’t have any idea what my dogs monetary value would be to someone else but, I know what he is worth to me and there are very few people in this old world who could afford him. He is way more than just a dog to me, he is a member of the family and I really feel like part of the family is missing when he is not there. I am not saying that he couldn’t be bought but it would have to be a ridiculously stupid amount of money and my family would have to be in need. The time and memories I have already are almost priceless. On the other side of things our dogs just like us and are not promised tomorrow life is a gamble and we have to make a choice just how much we are willing to wager.

I remember back when I coon hunted and ran some UKC field trials that there was a real high powered tree dog called 2nd Junior. He was said to be one of the most productive sires ever at that time (late 1990’s) when it came to throwing dependable tree dogs. The story goes that the guy was offered in upwards of 100k for the dog and turned it down. Within a couple weeks to a month the dog was killed on the interstate during a hunt where he was just showing him to a prospective breeder. From then on we refereed to that as the day two fools met ( The fool who offered it and the fool who turned it down) I am not sure how accurate that $$ amount is because back then most information was passed on by word of mouth and we all know that can get really distorted.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:28 pm

copterdoc wrote:There is really only one kind of person that stands to turn a profit by selling a dog that has begun to advance in training.
The Pro that owns it, and will get it back for more training.


That's not true. There are people that make a fair profit from selling started dogs. I had a client of mine did it numerous times. He would buy a great pup, turn it over to me at eight months, and sell it when we got derby points on it or derby listed it. One we derby listed then got an AM-JAM her first time out. You can guess what that one went for.

Rex Carr used to say that there would be a lot more field champions if 1) More dogs were properly trained and 2) More dogs were properly campaigned. That's a mouthful. Most people only think their dogs are properly trained; few are. Most people don't campaign them nearly enough. You have to run them week in and week out. It's damned expensive.

copterdoc wrote:However, there are plenty of dogs that are sold once started.
They are sold at a loss to the owner, for what two people can agree they are worth.

And both parties usually feel that they got a good deal, that they are both happy with.


Many are sold at substantial profit to the owner too. I doesn't take a fortune to get a dog pro trained and get derby points on it. That dog will go for a good penny. Problem is, many people train their own dogs then tend to over value what they actually have. It the dog has a lot of holes in it's training and is not a consistent finisher, it is only worth money to the owner or an uneducated buyer.
You really have to know what you are looking at when you buy a dog. It's a huge responsibility.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby pangborn83 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:03 pm

loner wrote:anybody that says not at any price has not been offered enough! krazybronco if someone offered you $150,000 for your dog would you take? :grooving:

I can say my dog would not be sold. She is family. Those that talk of owners being offered money and not taking it only to have the dog pass away shortly after I get their point but at the same time your wife could die in a car accident tomorrow does that mean she is for sale. Not trying to sway anyone's stand point on selling their dogs just pointing out why some say there is no price. Simply they are a big part of their life.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby copterdoc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:47 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
copterdoc wrote:There is really only one kind of person that stands to turn a profit by selling a dog that has begun to advance in training.
The Pro that owns it, and will get it back for more training.


That's not true. There are people that make a fair profit from selling started dogs.......
When you factor in all of the expenses, and especially the value of the time invested in training, you aren't very likely to turn a profit.

No one's time is free. Perhaps if an Am was willing to pay themselves $5 an hour, they could say that they are making money selling started dogs.

It's a very poor business model. The volume that you would have to be moving, would be on par with a puppy mill.
So, you'd be better off selling litters.

Now, on the other hand, a Pro that has room on his truck can certainly benefit from selling started dogs. Because, a Pro is paid money for the time he spends training.

And he's likely to get a high percentage of the dogs that he sells as started, back on his truck for further advancement and maintenance.

The dogs that he has on his truck, that he owns, are costing him money.
The client dogs that he has on his truck, are making him money.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:24 am

If you're selling a dog so cheap you don't make a profit, you're undervaluing the dog. An AM usually can't sell one of his dog's for what a pro can, because perspective buyers know the dog probably has holes. But let's take that little derby dog I was talking about. When she was derby listed, I had had her for six months so she was a full handling dog and ran with the open dogs. That owner sold her for $5000.00, this back in the 80's when training was $250.00 a month. My new client bought her, knowing what I'd done with her, put her back on the truck and six months later got the AM-JAM. Then sold her for $12,000.00. He had a total investment in her of about $7,000.00 and never touched the dog. Pretty fair profit, especially at the time, for an animal you have no time invested in.

When these guys flip dogs, it's as a hobby, not a profession. I'd like to make that kind of money for a hobby, but mine seem to cost me money. :mad:

Trick is, you have to really know dog's and that dog's history to turn a profit. And be committed.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby copterdoc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:23 am

gonehuntin' wrote:That owner sold her for $5000.00, this back in the 80's when training was $250.00 a month. My new client bought her, knowing what I'd done with her, put her back on the truck and six months later got the AM-JAM. Then sold her for $12,000.00. He had a total investment in her of about $7,000.00 and never touched the dog.....
Take those numbers, and consider that today's training fees are at least double what they were in the 80's. And that's with Hunt Test Pro's.

Then, find me a current ad for a started dog, where the owner could possibly be making money.

While there may have once been a time that you could "flip" trained dogs, it just doesn't happen today.
The market bears, what the market bears.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:07 am

copterdoc wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That owner sold her for $5000.00, this back in the 80's when training was $250.00 a month. My new client bought her, knowing what I'd done with her, put her back on the truck and six months later got the AM-JAM. Then sold her for $12,000.00. He had a total investment in her of about $7,000.00 and never touched the dog.....
Take those numbers, and consider that today's training fees are at least double what they were in the 80's. And that's with Hunt Test Pro's.

Then, find me a current ad for a started dog, where the owner could possibly be making money.

While there may have once been a time that you could "flip" trained dogs, it just doesn't happen today.
The market bears, what the market bears.


You may be right Doc; not in touch with today's market. Usually though everything keeps pace with inflation so I'm surprised dog's haven't as well. I believe that trainers today get around $750.00 a month or so? That would mean that dog today would go for ?15,000.00 as a derby listed, handling dog and 36,000.00 as an all 2 1/2 year old all age dog. Possible?
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby copterdoc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:16 am

gonehuntin' wrote:....You may be right Doc; not in touch with today's market. Usually though everything keeps pace with inflation so I'm surprised dog's haven't as well. I believe that trainers today get around $750.00 a month or so? That would mean that dog today would go for ?15,000.00 as a derby listed, handling dog and 36,000.00 as an all 2 1/2 year old all age dog. Possible?
It's certainly possible, in one off cases.

But, it has to be a dog that somebody wants bad enough to ask to buy it.
It won't happen, if the seller has to go out looking for a buyer.

And for every started dog that a savvy owner turns a profit on selling, they'll lose their ass on ten others.
Selling started dogs is a case of cutting your losses, not earning profits.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby kwacksmacker » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:25 pm

Pretty high compliment if ya ask me.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby labsforme » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:11 am

Gonehuntin', re cost of a competitive AA dog. Figure 8 months of the year campaigning @ $1000/mo, plus $750/mo for 4 months. $11 K x 3 years = $33 K. Add in vet bills, cost of said pup initially. At 36K break even, maybe. Price wise add a title to a dog and you can start multiplying x 2 or more, depending on dog. As an Am never break even on started dogs. Typically look for the best home for them.

Jeff

PS 2 year old just got a JAM in a very tough Qual. 3rd Qual she has run.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:34 pm

Trick is, in my opinion, to sell the dog BEFORE it's an AA dog, when it's ready to run one and has derby points, preferably a derby list under it's belt. Once you start actively campaigning a Q or AA dog, you're going to be putting, as you say, a lot of money into that dog and results will not be quickly forth coming.

So that's the key, flip them fast like my client did.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby Locked&Loaded » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:04 pm

I've had frustrated looking guys at the boat launch come up and offer me money to take their dogs home with me.
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Re: Your joking right.....

Postby ChasinTail » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:54 pm

Locked&Loaded wrote:I've had frustrated looking guys at the boat launch come up and offer me money to take their dogs home with me.


I've had that happen before. Usually goes something like this

"Had any luck?"
"No, do you know anybody who needs a real pretty lab that's great at flaring ducks?"


My first pup came from a lady that was giving them away for free. Had her for about 2 weeks and already had her sitting on command next to me, coming when called, and retrieving little bumpers right to hand at about 9 weeks old. Had a buddy that trains them come over and check her out and see what he thought about how I was doing with training. Said he had never seen one personally that done so great that young and offered to buy her for quite a bit of money. I declined but it made me feel real good about how she was doing already. As bad as I need the money I couldn't sell my little friend and the learning experience id gain from training her.
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