Future of Labs?

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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby MNGunner » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:31 pm

Irishwhistler wrote:
MNGunner wrote:
goodkarmarising wrote:
MNGunner wrote:Luckily, hunting breeds have test/competitions that reward intelligence, drive, willingness to please, scenting ability, athleticism, etc. The Hunt tests and Field Trials, etc.

That said, I don't like the proliferation of breeding designer traits such as "silver" or "fox red" labs.


Yeah because we all know fox reds won't hunt. :no:


Didn't say that-- there are mutts from the pound that will hunt. Most "red" and "silvers" are bred primarily for their coat color and secondarily (if at all) for their abilities. You don't have that problem with say, a black lab.

Just as the show ring has ruined other breeds where they are bred solely for looks.

MNGunner,
A fox red is simply a color phase of the yellow Lbrador, much like there are various color phases of chocolate Labs ranging from a liver color to very dark brown, still Labs and not really so called "designer Labs" like the so called silver which is likely to be a mix of Lab and Weimaraner (NOT a purebred Labrador).

Fox reds from good Labrador field bloodlines can make very capable gundogs.

Irishwhistler



I know everything you said. I also know that many (not all) of these dogs are being bred primarily for these color phases. They demand a higher price as a result. Again, something not true of black labs for instance.

Intersting, Here's a list of the dogs in the Retriever Hall of Fame:


http://www.birddogfoundation.com/retrie ... _of_fa.htm

Of the 130 dogs

83.8% Black Labs
3.8% Chocolate Labs
3.1% Yellow Labs
9.2% Golden Retrivers
Last edited by MNGunner on Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Jarbo03 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:28 pm

TomKat wrote:Shes on a self feeder. Never been a problem as long a I do my part.



Have tried that before, I have seen the older a dog gets the more their food needs to be monitored.

Hunting dogs love exercise in this weather TK.

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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Westtennduckhunter » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:32 pm

TomKat wrote:Shes on a self feeder. Never been a problem as long a I do my part.


You're ballsy. My dogs would eat the bottom out of a self feeder. But they're on a schedule. They may would get used to a self feeder.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Locked&Loaded » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:42 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Now you've gone and done it.


I'm teasing him because my dog is currently at least that chunky.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Locked&Loaded » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:45 pm

TomKat wrote:L&L how do you exercise your dog when it gets below freezing on a regular basis after hunting season?


TK- it's honestly pretty tough for me to keep my mutt in hunting caliber condition in the off season when it's colder than heck here. My dog gets fat during that period of time between when the hunt ends and it gets hot enough that we start training / playing in the water to keep cool. I usually have my dog in tip top shape by the end of the summer from all of the water work and I jog with her in the early mornings a few times per week, but right now she just eats and lays around getting fat.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Locked&Loaded » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:49 pm

Here is her fat and happy off-season self. During the waterfowl season, she gets much more lean and you can see a bit of her ribs.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby TomKat » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:02 pm

Thats kinda what I do. This has been our coldest winter in 20 years. Anyhow she will be ship shape soon enough.

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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby razorback » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:32 pm

The breed is basically split as it is, show versus field. There are plenty that participate in neither, but I believe as the two get further apart it will begin to push these dogs to either end. One of these days one of those show labs is going to keel over dead from a heart attack as it waddles around the ring. Maybe that is when the show owners will figure it out.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:26 am

Surely the overwhelming majority of Labs are neither field or show but simply pet bred and wouldn't fair very well on either side of that divide.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby goodkarmarising » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:29 am

MNGunner wrote:
Irishwhistler wrote:
MNGunner wrote:
goodkarmarising wrote:
MNGunner wrote:Luckily, hunting breeds have test/competitions that reward intelligence, drive, willingness to please, scenting ability, athleticism, etc. The Hunt tests and Field Trials, etc.

That said, I don't like the proliferation of breeding designer traits such as "silver" or "fox red" labs.


Yeah because we all know fox reds won't hunt. :no:


Didn't say that-- there are mutts from the pound that will hunt. Most "red" and "silvers" are bred primarily for their coat color and secondarily (if at all) for their abilities. You don't have that problem with say, a black lab.

Just as the show ring has ruined other breeds where they are bred solely for looks.

MNGunner,
A fox red is simply a color phase of the yellow Lbrador, much like there are various color phases of chocolate Labs ranging from a liver color to very dark brown, still Labs and not really so called "designer Labs" like the so called silver which is likely to be a mix of Lab and Weimaraner (NOT a purebred Labrador).

Fox reds from good Labrador field bloodlines can make very capable gundogs.

Irishwhistler



I know everything you said. I also know that many (not all) of these dogs are being bred primarily for these color phases. They demand a higher price as a result. Again, something not true of black labs for instance.

Intersting, Here's a list of the dogs in the Retriever Hall of Fame:


http://www.birddogfoundation.com/retrie ... _of_fa.htm

Of the 130 dogs

83.8% Black Labs
3.8% Chocolate Labs
3.1% Yellow Labs
9.2% Golden Retrivers



Everybody gets that you like black labs...but if you try to throw those stats out as evidence that black labs are the best hunters out there, your evidence is flawed. If the majority of labs are black then it only stands to reason that the majority of labs in the hall of fame should be black labs. DUH!!!
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:42 am

Actually, the majority of Labs are yellow.
And it's been that way for a long time.

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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:48 am

It's not coincidental that such a high percentage of the dogs in the RHF, are black Labs. It's just common sense.

When you select for performance, you are forced to disregard color.
Because, color doesn't matter.

When you select for color, you are forced to disregard performance.

When you disregard a trait, you are also forced to select against it.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby goodkarmarising » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:53 am

copterdoc wrote:It's not coincidental that such a high percentage of the dogs in the RHF, are black Labs. It's just common sense.

When you select for performance, you are forced to disregard color.
Because, color doesn't matter.

When you select for color, you are forced to disregard performance.

When you disregard a trait, you are also forced to select against it.


More double speak from you, I see
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:03 am

You could argue that the majority of the Labs produced from performance oriented breedings are black, and I couldn't disagree.
But, that wouldn't help your case either.

If you go about searching for the best puppy that you can afford, and your primary criteria for selecting the breeding is performance, you will end up with a black dog 99 times out of 100.

Or, maybe it's only 83.8 times out of 100.

If you go about searching for the best yellow or chocolate puppy that you can afford, and your primary criteria for selecting the breeding is what color the pup will be, you will end up with a dog that isn't black 100 times out of 100.

I don't care if you care about what color your dog is. It doesn't concern me one bit.
But, caring about what color your dog is, equates to shooting yourself in the foot.

It just about guarantees that you WON'T get the best pup that you could have, for the price that you paid, how long you spent looking, and how far you had to drive to get it.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:02 am

goodkarmarising wrote:
MNGunner wrote:
Irishwhistler wrote:
MNGunner wrote:
goodkarmarising wrote:
MNGunner wrote:Luckily, hunting breeds have test/competitions that reward intelligence, drive, willingness to please, scenting ability, athleticism, etc. The Hunt tests and Field Trials, etc.

That said, I don't like the proliferation of breeding designer traits such as "silver" or "fox red" labs.


Yeah because we all know fox reds won't hunt. :no:


Didn't say that-- there are mutts from the pound that will hunt. Most "red" and "silvers" are bred primarily for their coat color and secondarily (if at all) for their abilities. You don't have that problem with say, a black lab.

Just as the show ring has ruined other breeds where they are bred solely for looks.

MNGunner,
A fox red is simply a color phase of the yellow Lbrador, much like there are various color phases of chocolate Labs ranging from a liver color to very dark brown, still Labs and not really so called "designer Labs" like the so called silver which is likely to be a mix of Lab and Weimaraner (NOT a purebred Labrador).

Fox reds from good Labrador field bloodlines can make very capable gundogs.

Irishwhistler



I know everything you said. I also know that many (not all) of these dogs are being bred primarily for these color phases. They demand a higher price as a result. Again, something not true of black labs for instance.

Intersting, Here's a list of the dogs in the Retriever Hall of Fame:


http://www.birddogfoundation.com/retrie ... _of_fa.htm

Of the 130 dogs

83.8% Black Labs
3.8% Chocolate Labs
3.1% Yellow Labs
9.2% Golden Retrivers



Everybody gets that you like black labs...but if you try to throw those stats out as evidence that black labs are the best hunters out there, your evidence is flawed. If the majority of labs are black then it only stands to reason that the majority of labs in the hall of fame should be black labs. DUH!!!



Interesting data. Black Labs have been the basis of the breed for a long time. With that long history you are going to see a huge number of blacks in the hall of fame. This makes the original claim spurious as best. Now if you want to take a time frame that matches the history of black / yellow / and chocolate labs when they have all been prevelant and participants in the circuits it might have a hint more validity. Except that you then have to account for how many people who work those color of dogs have the money and time to run them hard enough to get them into the hall of fame. Then ask how many traininers will automatically dump a yellow or chocolate out of a breeding and not invest in it fully. Now lets talk about he percentage of black labs that fail our of training or are just so so. With their numbers being much higher over their history due to the long term history of black labs in the breed you now also have a much higher failure rate along with more hall of famers. Now lets toss the timeline thing in and look at prevalence against yellows and then chocolates. Anyone starting to see how you cannot use past history as an argument and support it with basic numbers from modern labs?
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Labs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:09 am

razorback wrote:The breed is basically split as it is, show versus field.


Not based on the photos in this thread... :lol:
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby MNGunner » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:24 am

ScaupHunter wrote:
goodkarmarising wrote:
MNGunner wrote:
Irishwhistler wrote:
MNGunner wrote:
goodkarmarising wrote:
MNGunner wrote:Luckily, hunting breeds have test/competitions that reward intelligence, drive, willingness to please, scenting ability, athleticism, etc. The Hunt tests and Field Trials, etc.

That said, I don't like the proliferation of breeding designer traits such as "silver" or "fox red" labs.


Yeah because we all know fox reds won't hunt. :no:


Didn't say that-- there are mutts from the pound that will hunt. Most "red" and "silvers" are bred primarily for their coat color and secondarily (if at all) for their abilities. You don't have that problem with say, a black lab.

Just as the show ring has ruined other breeds where they are bred solely for looks.

MNGunner,
A fox red is simply a color phase of the yellow Lbrador, much like there are various color phases of chocolate Labs ranging from a liver color to very dark brown, still Labs and not really so called "designer Labs" like the so called silver which is likely to be a mix of Lab and Weimaraner (NOT a purebred Labrador).

Fox reds from good Labrador field bloodlines can make very capable gundogs.

Irishwhistler



I know everything you said. I also know that many (not all) of these dogs are being bred primarily for these color phases. They demand a higher price as a result. Again, something not true of black labs for instance.

Intersting, Here's a list of the dogs in the Retriever Hall of Fame:


http://www.birddogfoundation.com/retrie ... _of_fa.htm

Of the 130 dogs

83.8% Black Labs
3.8% Chocolate Labs
3.1% Yellow Labs
9.2% Golden Retrivers



Everybody gets that you like black labs...but if you try to throw those stats out as evidence that black labs are the best hunters out there, your evidence is flawed. If the majority of labs are black then it only stands to reason that the majority of labs in the hall of fame should be black labs. DUH!!!



Interesting data. Black Labs have been the basis of the breed for a long time. Anyone starting to see how you cannot use past history as an argument and support it with basic numbers from modern labs?


That's my only point--that black labs have been the basis of the breed. They were bred (and continue to be bred) for their abilities, health, attitude and NOT solely for color! You that also gives a much bigger gene pool.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Labs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:25 am

Image

This hound hasn't seen a mark since Thanksgiving...;). Now you can see a difference between show and field...:P


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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Jarbo03 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:15 am

If you selected two dogs for breeding based on all the best attributes and not color, on average you would have more black pups than others. Not to say great dogs can't come in all colors, but when it becomes a part of breeding, the gene pool is limited without a doubt.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby TomKat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:40 am

Pick the litter, not the dog.

Brandy came from a pair of strong bloodlines. All her litter mates were brown. I let the breeder pick her for me. That was a good decision. He knew the pups better than me.

I always wonder if the other pups had the same hunting drive.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:03 am

copterdoc wrote:It's not coincidental that such a high percentage of the dogs in the RHF, are black Labs. It's just common sense.

When you select for performance, you are forced to disregard color.
Because, color doesn't matter.

When you select for color, you are forced to disregard performance.

When you disregard a trait, you are also forced to select against it.


I agree with Doc 100% there. What he says only makes sense.

Problem with us Yanks is that we've always been short sighted and focus on one thing. I really believe we can sacrifice a little of each and get better dogs. I think the Germans have had if figured out for a long time. A dog should be bred to enhance ALL characteristics; performance, conformation, intelligence. Unfortunately, that isn't done by most breeders. If it were, the breed would be a lot better for it.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Labs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:17 am

gonehuntin' wrote: I think the Germans have had if figured out for a long time. A dog should be bred to enhance ALL characteristics; performance, conformation, intelligence. Unfortunately, that isn't done by most breeders. If it were, the breed would be a lot better for it.


Agreed. I think the part they have figured out, is making those standards mandatory for the dog to be "included" in the breeding program. I think some of that is currently being done with labs, but it isn't tracked, and quite possibly fizzles out within one generation, depending on who the offspring is sold too....
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby FowlPwrcat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:45 am

TomKat wrote:Pick the litter, not the dog.

Brandy came from a pair of strong bloodlines. All her litter mates were brown. I let the breeder pick her for me. That was a good decision. He knew the pups better than me.

I always wonder if the other pups had the same hunting drive.



Do you have her pedigree handy? If there are strong tested bloodlines in brandy, it would seem easy to find info on her litter mates to see if they have obtained any titles as well. Which would prove they had the drive.
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby dogyak » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:27 pm

In the states , we could get a good gundog from a lab with general breeding ( mixed field and show breeding ) into the 50's .
That is generally no longer possible , and has not been for some time . Field dogs and show dogs are bred for different traits , and mixing them dilutes those traits .
Of course they can hunt , they're labs . But that's not always the case . The buyer wanting a true gundog has too do his homework and buy from the right breeding in this day of age , or roll the dice on a backyard breeding which does not turn out for the good most of the time .
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Re: Future of Labs?

Postby Labs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:35 pm

dogyak wrote:In the states , we could get a good gundog from a lab with general breeding ( mixed field and show breeding ) into the 50's .
That is generally no longer possible , and has not been for some time . Field dogs and show dogs are bred for different traits , and mixing them dilutes those traits .
Of course they can hunt , they're labs . But that's not always the case . The buyer wanting a true gundog has too do his homework and buy from the right breeding in this day of age , or roll the dice on a backyard breeding which does not turn out for the good most of the time .


I would surmise that this occurred because people's expectations of what is meant by "good dog" has changed over the years. A good dog in the 50's, might only be a marginal one today....Or have the FT rules not changed much in the last 75 years? Hunt tests have only been around since the early 80's, and I believe they have had a tremendous positive effect on the breed.
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