Constant barking....

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Re: Constant barking....

Postby BlkonBlkRS3 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:25 am

HNTFSH wrote:
BlkonBlkRS3 wrote:
Little harsh there OmegaRed. His post clearly shows he wants to learn how to correct the behavior, not be told that he is a bad dog owner and should get rid of the dog. How about some constructive advice, everyone is a beginner when they start something new, and not all of us know everything.


Outside of this issue what you'll find is MANY that only deal with problems as they progress with no investment in learning how to avoid them. There's really no excuse for that in my mind. It's the responsible dog owner thing to do. Being new is not an excuse.


HNTFSH, you have been brainwashed by this forum. In this day and age forums are a great place to find information and resources pertaining to a particular topic. That is exactly what he was doing here. To say that being new is not an excuse is crazy talk, are you telling me that you have never had an issue with a dog that you had to reach out to someone else for help? If that is the case :bow: but I will call BS on it.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:42 am

I would have to agree here. I don't ask for much advice here or in other dog forums simply because someone would always come along and start criticizing instead of providing productive input.

I have recieved some great advice when I have asked and some I simply ignored since it was not helpful.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby TomKat » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:16 am

Omega Red had a good first paragraph. Training pups is time consuming and hard work.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby BlkonBlkRS3 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:22 am

TomKat wrote:Omega Red had a good first paragraph. Training pups is time consuming and hard work.



I do agree with that part of the post TomKat.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:49 am

BlkonBlkRS3 wrote:
HNTFSH, you have been brainwashed by this forum. In this day and age forums are a great place to find information and resources pertaining to a particular topic. That is exactly what he was doing here. To say that being new is not an excuse is crazy talk, are you telling me that you have never had an issue with a dog that you had to reach out to someone else for help? If that is the case :bow: but I will call BS on it.


I'd guess that some have been brainwashed with easy instant gratification and ask before attempting on their own. Myriad of education materials out there. I've been here since 2006 and familiar with plenty of forums. All the same.

You are twisting what I said (which i always find fascinating). I get plenty of help, if needed after attempting to solve a dog issue on my own. But it ain't on puppy problems.

Pay attention and you'll find most new guys haven't taken ownership of their own dog. They'll rely on asking the same questions that were asked by hundreds before them taking the same approach. Sad part is, the REALLY important stuff to know about raising a hunting dog rarely gets discussed.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:05 am

ScaupHunter wrote:I would have to agree here. I don't ask for much advice here or in other dog forums simply because someone would always come along and start criticizing instead of providing productive input.

I have recieved some great advice when I have asked and some I simply ignored since it was not helpful.


You have to be careful calling things useful or not useful when you don't know much to begin with. Many prefer to hear what they want to hear, mainly because it fits their belief system based on not much fact.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby OmegaRed » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:51 am

This is why people get fed up with the dog forum. Because frequent posters in here get sick and tired of dealing with lazy, know it all posters who think they are somehow inherently unique. People think raising a puppy or a kid is some experience that will self right itself if left long enough. You have an open book with blank pages (a puppy). How it gets filled in is up to you.

I myself, would never take on a project being as naive to think that I could complete it as well by myself than with someone else with more knowledge than me helping.

Do most new dog owners that come here read stickies?
Have they had prior dog training experience?
Have they taken ANY time to watch a youtube video, read a dog behavior book, read a training book?

I'm not talking about getting a dog to run triple blind 500 yds. I'm talking about teaching a dog to sit, teaching a dog to get house broken, teaching a dog to be quiet. The most basic things that every dog should know without question. The things that if left unlearned will leave you with a dog that you end up leaving in a kennel all day rather than bother with it. A dog that jumps on people when they come over, develops behavioral issues down the road, a dog that you wish you never had.

"Gave him some bully sticks"
"Tried the muzzle trick"
"Moved the kennel to the living room"

Oh these didn't work after you tried them for 5 minutes! Astounding! That puppy must be an idiot in capable of learning. How stupid of him. This type of post makes me believe the OP has spent 0 time with the dog.


Did you know not to touch a hot stove when you were an infant? No, you were taught, either by someone else or by experience. You are teaching the dog through repetition, and judicious and consistent correction. There are at least 3 different "correct" methods to teach the dog to be quiet in this thread. You have to realize how your dog learns, and adapt and adjust the methods until you find one that works. Expecting a 12 week old dog to know more than a few basic commands is asking a lot. Y

People are more than willing to help in this forum, but get sick of repeating the same basic stuff ad nauseam.



HNTFSH wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:I would have to agree here. I don't ask for much advice here or in other dog forums simply because someone would always come along and start criticizing instead of providing productive input.

I have recieved some great advice when I have asked and some I simply ignored since it was not helpful.


You have to be careful calling things useful or not useful when you don't know much to begin with. Many prefer to hear what they want to hear, mainly because it fits their belief system based on not much fact.



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Re: Constant barking....

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:59 am

OmegaRed wrote:This is why people get fed up with the dog forum. Because frequent posters in here get sick and tired of dealing with lazy, know it all posters who think they are somehow inherently unique. People think raising a puppy or a kid is some experience that will self right itself if left long enough. You have an open book with blank pages (a puppy). How it gets filled in is up to you.

I myself, would never take on a project being as naive to think that I could complete it as well by myself than with someone else with more knowledge than me helping.

Do most new dog owners that come here read stickies?
Have they had prior dog training experience?
Have they taken ANY time to watch a youtube video, read a dog behavior book, read a training book?

I'm not talking about getting a dog to run triple blind 500 yds. I'm talking about teaching a dog to sit, teaching a dog to get house broken, teaching a dog to be quiet. The most basic things that every dog should know without question. The things that if left unlearned will leave you with a dog that you end up leaving in a kennel all day rather than bother with it. A dog that jumps on people when they come over, develops behavioral issues down the road, a dog that you wish you never had.

"Gave him some bully sticks"
"Tried the muzzle trick"
"Moved the kennel to the living room"

Oh these didn't work after you tried them for 5 minutes! Astounding! That puppy must be an idiot in capable of learning. How stupid of him. This type of post makes me believe the OP has spent 0 time with the dog.


Did you know not to touch a hot stove when you were an infant? No, you were taught, either by someone else or by experience. You are teaching the dog through repetition, and judicious and consistent correction. There are at least 3 different "correct" methods to teach the dog to be quiet in this thread. You have to realize how your dog learns, and adapt and adjust the methods until you find one that works. Expecting a 12 week old dog to know more than a few basic commands is asking a lot. Y

People are more than willing to help in this forum, but get sick of repeating the same basic stuff ad nauseam.



HNTFSH wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:I would have to agree here. I don't ask for much advice here or in other dog forums simply because someone would always come along and start criticizing instead of providing productive input.

I have recieved some great advice when I have asked and some I simply ignored since it was not helpful.


You have to be careful calling things useful or not useful when you don't know much to begin with. Many prefer to hear what they want to hear, mainly because it fits their belief system based on not much fact.



Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.

George Bernard Shaw


:lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :thumbsup:
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby polmaise » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:37 pm

Any body who has posted on this thread got 'Kids'?....
What training and planning preparation did you do before you even thought about having them?.........
When you got one, what was it like ,even if you read all the books and watched all the advice on a dvd/tv/film etc?
Of course, You can all tell us how wonderful the ride was and trouble free ? :yes: :hammer:
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby OmegaRed » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:42 pm

polmaise wrote:Any body who has posted on this thread got 'Kids'?....
What training and planning preparation did you do before you even thought about having them?.........
When you got one, what was it like ,even if you read all the books and watched all the advice on a dvd/tv/film etc?
Of course, You can all tell us how wonderful the ride was and trouble free ? :yes: :hammer:


You expected your kid to be potty trained after 1 time setting it on the toilet? Did you repeat trying to teach it, or did you say "Well that didn't work"?
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby OmegaRed » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:48 pm

Hey Max4, one more thing as I just reread one of you posts where you let the dog run around and he ate the couch.

The puppy should never be allowed to free roam when you are not paying 100% attention to it. They are going to chew on things, soil the house, etc. This is the stage where you are telling the dog what it can and can't do, and associate commands with actions.
So if the dog is running around and chewing on things, the dog thinks "well I can run around and chew on things because he's here and he's letting me, it must be ok".

For the first few weeks, if you aren't paying 100% attention to him, he's in the crate. You always take him out of the crate, straight outside. He doesn't come back in til he eliminates. Then you have a span where you should be worry free with eliminating in the house. Take this time to start associating what he can and can't do. "No" gets a grab of the snout, a tap on the butt, whatever. He jumps on you, off. This is how you start building a bond. He realizes you are master. We all live happily ever after.


The more consistent you are, the faster the dog will learn. If every time it is quiet, and you associate being quiet with "quiet" and a treat - the dog will be conditioned to getting a treat with the command. Pavlov loves treats.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:20 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:I would have to agree here. I don't ask for much advice here or in other dog forums simply because someone would always come along and start criticizing instead of providing productive input.

I have recieved some great advice when I have asked and some I simply ignored since it was not helpful.


You have to be careful calling things useful or not useful when you don't know much to begin with. Many prefer to hear what they want to hear, mainly because it fits their belief system based on not much fact.



Excellent point! The human desire to hear what they want to hear is a very well known phenomenon.

Hence a ton of research and effort to find things out on my own. Followed by only asking questions that I could not find anwers for elsewhere.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:56 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:I would have to agree here. I don't ask for much advice here or in other dog forums simply because someone would always come along and start criticizing instead of providing productive input.

I have recieved some great advice when I have asked and some I simply ignored since it was not helpful.


You have to be careful calling things useful or not useful when you don't know much to begin with. Many prefer to hear what they want to hear, mainly because it fits their belief system based on not much fact.



Excellent point! The human desire to hear what they want to hear is a very well known phenomenon.

Hence a ton of research and effort to find things out on my own. Followed by only asking questions that I could not find anwers for elsewhere.


I recall many questions. You just didn't like the answers.

ScaupHunter wrote:Yes,

Bella and I have been on a long running postive training program since she failed FF at a kennel. I phased the clicker out over 6 months ago. it was no longer needed to get her to respond. Food and praise rewards were used for the last six months of her training. The reward training went very well until about two months ago. Bella had a distinct behavioral transition after her last heat cycle. She has decided she no longer wants to sit to flush or listen to commands when she is more than 20 yards away from her handler. She has started breaking at the flush on birds, and wants to try and chase the bird down when one is missed. Once she comes back she will only hunt to the side the bird flushed on and won't listen to directional casting commands. She also started breaking at the shot during duck hunts.

The field issues area occurring when she is super excited about seeing a bird flush or on a fly away or is super excited to go play with another dog. All of this has cropped up in the last two months. After a bunch of reading on the postive reinforcement for this type of behavior, and doing a bunch of research on eCollars and their use I decided to start the CC process. The positive reinforcement methods were not helping fix the breaking issue. They were getting worse.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby Max4Holly » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:31 pm

I have kids, numerous books and videos on raising a retriever puppy. This is a problem I haven't had with any other dogs I've had. As far as not attention and exercise, he is with me 24/7! At work with me, on my lunch hour we spend 10 minutes training ( basics sit, stay, heel and place) with treats and he's picked up on all of those quickly and for a 12 week old pup is pretty consistent ( we've started to replace treats with praise) then spend about 30-40 minutes walking through the woods behind work/ meeting new people/ exposing him to the trucks/drivers/and machines that the guys use, then the last 5 minutes or so I throw three marks and we go back to the office bad he goes in his kennel and stays quiet unless he needs to go out. 30 minute break we just hang out outside meeting more people and if I see something new I expose him to it and he's taking it all I'm stride. When I get off we run by someplace else sometimes it's a store sometimes it's a park for more training and a couple marks. He sits until realeased to his food in the evening and then plays some more with my big dog until it's time to be put up, which is usually around 9pm. . And that's when the issue starts. We didn't try all those things and then quit like suggested, and unless your in my house I don't know why you would make a stupid assumption as such...thanks to those who made legitimate suggestions and gave advice....those running their mouths and passing judgement and making assumptions....get over yourselves.
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Constant barking....

Postby Bluesky2012 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:33 pm

OmegaRed wrote:The more consistent you are, the faster the dog will learn. If every time it is quiet, and you associate being quiet with "quiet" and a treat - the dog will be conditioned to getting a treat with the command. Pavlov loves treats.


OP read this quote as well as the other parts of this paragraph. Big help.

Also I keep my two dogs separated for about 90% of the time (I have a 12 weeker and a 2 year old). My first time to raise two inside together but it goes back to habits and attention. Separate them so you can pay attention completely to the pup and good habits will form better. Don't worry though, it'll get better with patience and consistency. Keep reading and learning.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby OmegaRed » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:39 pm

Max4Holly wrote:I have kids, numerous books and videos on raising a retriever puppy. This is a problem I haven't had with any other dogs I've had. As far as not attention and exercise, he is with me 24/7! At work with me, on my lunch hour we spend 10 minutes training ( basics sit, stay, heel and place) with treats and he's picked up on all of those quickly and for a 12 week old pup is pretty consistent ( we've started to replace treats with praise) then spend about 30-40 minutes walking through the woods behind work/ meeting new people/ exposing him to the trucks/drivers/and machines that the guys use, then the last 5 minutes or so I throw three marks and we go back to the office bad he goes in his kennel and stays quiet unless he needs to go out. 30 minute break we just hang out outside meeting more people and if I see something new I expose him to it and he's taking it all I'm stride. When I get off we run by someplace else sometimes it's a store sometimes it's a park for more training and a couple marks. He sits until realeased to his food in the evening and then plays some more with my big dog until it's time to be put up, which is usually around 9pm. . And that's when the issue starts. We didn't try all those things and then quit like suggested, and unless your in my house I don't know why you would make a stupid assumption as such...thanks to those who made legitimate suggestions and gave advice....those running their mouths and passing judgement and making assumptions....get over yourselves.


Sounds like you are doing a good job socializing him and getting him to new places/atmospheres/experiences.

(bold) If that's the case, definitely try the method I suggested. The dog is barking for attention - he likes being with you and doesn't want to be put in the kennel.

That being said, I feel that the snout grab / "no" suggestion in this case aren't the best route. You are positively reinforcing the behavior by giving the dog attention (whether coming to the crate, talking to the dog, or even yelling at the dog). If you aren't familiar with "operant condition", do a little reading to get familiar with the terms. Positive doesn't mean "good" in this instance, instead it means you are delivering a stimulus following a response. Reinforcement means that you are causing the behavior to occur on a great frequency (in this case barking).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning


Like I said before, it's gonna take a little bit of time. My newest puppy (now 11 months) picked it up in a few solid weeks of doing it. It sucked, but got gradually better like everything else. Now if we are in public, and she whines - I can say quiet and it's the end of it. Same thing around game. I have a versatile dog that barks on scent for certain game types. I can't just "make her be quiet all the time".

And it also gave me an option to step it up from association to formal enforcement. Like it was mentioned in this thread...you are setting yourself up with tools to fix problems that haven't ran into yet. Just because your dog likes to fetch now, doesn't mean it won't someday refuse. Just because your dog takes casting now, doesn't mean that someday it won't. And if you have no tools to fix it, how will you? You'll just be one of those idiots yelling at your dog in the duck blind annoying all the others around you.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby Max4Holly » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:07 pm

Thanks omega, my degree is biology so the Pavlov/operant condition his something I'm familiar with... Just never thought about using that technique... Which is stupid because it was based on dogs .....
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby TomKat » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:15 pm

Never had kids.

I have a back ground in Psychology myself, and knew about Classical Conditioning, the Hull approach, etc.

But when I knew I wanted a dog, I read a book called The Ten Minute Retriever.
I also read a book by Delmar Smith, a man who knew a few things about dogs.

Then I read as much training stuff as I could online, and consulted with people I knew who had hunting dogs. I watched everything I could on Youtube. I talked to duck hunters. I watched Cesar Milan. Laugh if you want, but Ceasar is right about one thing- all dogs need exercise, disciplene and love. He also was right in that dogs need a pack leader.

Knowing what I know now, I would have went to some field trials if they were any near here.

When the big day came I spent lots and lots of time with my pup. The first 6 months of its life we walked on a leash over 200 miles. She built a good foundation of basic obedience with a focus on consistiency. Before long she knew that no matter what, I was always going to get my way, she would be treated well, and that my way was the only way.

Ofcourse pups will be pups, and she tired my patience at times. But I was lucky in that the prey drive was always there. I never had a problem getting her to retrieve...but as my research indicated, she only got 2-3 retrieves a day until she was like 13 weeks. On one of our numerous walks along a creek, she jumped in one her own accord and swam just fine; like most labs I have never had a problem getting her to go swimming. She loves water. I shoot rifles in my pasture, so she always heard gun fire. The transition to hunting was seamless.

When we had our first hunt, it was great to see all the work pay off. She made a few mistakes, but I was very proud of that first teal she retrivied.

To the original poster: my little story above is not unique. Ownership of a dog is a big responsability; they are like a 2 year old kid that never grows up. You have to watch them all the time, tend to all their needs, and baby them when the time is right.

They always need exercise, attention, and disciplene. You had better get used to the idea that your life has changed, your pup now owns a good piece of your life....and that never ends.

Its not a phase; its a way of life.
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Re: Constant barking....

Postby FowlPwrcat » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:05 pm

Max4Holly wrote:Got him some bully sticks yesterday to give when he goes into the crate.... Problem solved


Those smell so bad. I will NEVER use one again lol. Deer antler is the way to go
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