Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Thawed

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Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Thawed

Postby C.J. » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:07 am

I kept a large amount of doves, quail and ducks from last year in my deep freezer, I plan to thaw one or two out a few days prior to use during training. Is there anything wrong with doing this? diseases or anything that could cause the dog harm?
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:11 am

If introducing birds to a pup the dead unfrozen ones are of little value IMO but live ones are great.

I'd be thinking 'Intro' 'fun' 'exposure' 'confidence building'' as the reason to use birds. Later in life we all use thawed birds for some retrieving actvities, along with bumpers and dokkens.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Labs » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:22 am

No danger to the dog...we do this with training birds and birds we get after a test. Couple of things...

1) If these are birds you harvested, make darn sure you don't have more than your possession limit.
2) Be careful where you train. If the CO catches you using wild harvested birds, you could get tagged for wanton waste. Not all states are the same, so make sure you look into those laws.
3) Check out your dog training laws...some states require you get a permit from the DNR if you are using actual birds.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby i_willie12 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:24 am

ducks fine... Dove quail i wouldnt use!!! They are small pups tend to mouth them.. Then tend to eat them!
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby aunt betty » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:26 am

Labs wrote:No danger to the dog...we do this with training birds and birds we get after a test. Couple of things...

1) If these are birds you harvested, make darn sure you don't have more than your possession limit.
2) Be careful where you train. If the CO catches you using wild harvested birds, you could get tagged for wanton waste. Not all states are the same, so make sure you look into those laws.
3) Check out your dog training laws...some states require you get a permit from the DNR if you are using actual birds.


Strap the wings onto a dummy.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Labs » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:28 am

Who you calling a dummy?? :lol3:
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby copterdoc » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:37 am

aunt betty wrote:Strap the wings onto a dummy.
Strapping wings to a bumper might help some dogs that already like birds, but not bumpers, transition to liking bumpers too.

But, vice versa never works.

A bird is a bird.
It's not JUST it's damn wings.

To a dog, a bird is a very, very, very, different thing than a pair of wings taped to a cylindrical piece of rubber.
The feathers have little, (if anything) to do with why some dogs are apprehensive, or just plain afraid to pick up a bird.

In order to train a bird dog, you need birds.
Real birds.
Whole birds.
Live birds.
Dead birds.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby copterdoc » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:44 am

And while I have been asked on multiple occasions for my current hunting license while training outside of the regular hunting seasons, I have never once had a Warden go through my bucket of birds and count them, or bother to identify species, or search for proof of them being pen-raised vs wild.

I've often heard it said that you need to pay attention to your possession limit, and that you could get charged with wanton waste when training with wild game birds.

To that, I just say hooey. It's never happened to anybody.
Game Wardens aren't retarded.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Rick Hall » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:55 am

i_willie12 wrote:ducks fine... Dove quail i wouldnt use!!! They are small pups tend to mouth them.. Then tend to eat them!


I'm with willie on this. No small birds, and particularly doves, until well after Pup's displaying good mouth habits with pigeons and ducks.

And I'm with copterdoc on wings.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby dogyak » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:23 am

Rick Hall wrote:
i_willie12 wrote:ducks fine... Dove quail i wouldnt use!!! They are small pups tend to mouth them.. Then tend to eat them!


I'm with willie on this. No small birds, and particularly doves, until well after Pup's displaying good mouth habits with pigeons and ducks.

And I'm with copterdoc on wings.
Agree with all the above . Also if retrieving in water , those doves and quail will not hold up very well . In fact they will be right down nasty and if your pup is not FF at this time could result in a refusal with could turn into a big training issue . Stay with the ducks .
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby C.J. » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:35 am

I have access to live ducks and pigeons as well. I wanted to start with dove/quail in the yard since a mallard or woody might be too big for a 8 week old pup. I was thinking let him retrieve a wing during training and work up from there. Also I am hesitant to give him a live bird until he is at least months cause I don't want one of these pigeons poking him in the eye or anything that might freak him out.

I am using the smartworks program if that helps at all.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby copterdoc » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:46 am

Even a 5 week old puppy will have no ill come from a live pigeon.
They just aren't "mean" birds.

Crows on the other hand, are pure evil.
No matter how old and salty your dog is.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Rick Hall » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:51 am

If you have access to pigeons, do the pup and yourself the favor of using them for bird introductions, either freshly killed or wing-locked or taped if you want to keep the bird alive for later use. Here's how you wing-lock one:
Image

But you could also tape or tie the wing bases. When Pup's shown it's cool with that and carrying such birds around, you can progress to "clips," either cutting the 10 primaries short on one wing, if the bird need not fly again before its late Summer molt, or pulling them, so the bird will only do without for a month while they regrow:
Image

Or you could just masking tape the primaries together to inhibit flight more temporarily.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:45 am

Like the above and it's not about 'retrieving' at that age. It's about curiosity and confidence with a bird.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby copterdoc » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:10 am

HNTFSH wrote:Like the above and it's not about 'retrieving' at that age. It's about curiosity and confidence with a bird.
And that's also essentially why competitive amateurs, and Pro Trainers both use bumpers for the "meat and potatoes" of retrieving training.

A major key to successfully training a Retriever, is knowing how to develop and maintain two separate "worlds" and keep them separate for a period of time long enough to allow them to develop to a point that you can safely bring those two "worlds" together at a time that they will merge with each other. Rather than one merely overwhelming and destroying the other.

The easiest "worlds" to teach new Trainers about, is the "yard" and the "field".
But, honestly, there are way more "worlds" that great Trainers have learned that it's best to keep separate until the dog is ready.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Labs » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:33 pm

copterdoc wrote:I've often heard it said that you need to pay attention to your possession limit, and that you could get charged with wanton waste when training with wild game birds.

To that, I just say hooey. It's never happened to anybody.
Game Wardens aren't retarded.


Try training with a bucket full of wood ducks, and a CO stops by. Mallards are most commonly used as training ducks, and they usually don't say boo about that...train with pheasants in IA, MN, or SD, you better have proof that they were pen raised, or you WILL get a ticket...as I posted earlier, every state is different. Unless you have trained in and encountered every CO in every state, your above assessment is just plain wrong, and some of the CO's I have encountered could ID a hen mallard from a immature drake mallard, so some are only a shade above an IQ of 60.

Additionally, some states require that you obtain a training permit on private and public ground, so make sure you check on that prior to starting your training.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby crackerd » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:06 pm

CJ, if this is the pup on which you've posted "hunting" pedigrees of dam and sire, you're going to need a head start and the earliest introduction possible. If it could be done, I'd seriously consider introducing live birds while the pup's still in utero.

Nah, that's a cruel thing to say, but you really need to commit to reawakening this Lab's instincts with birds as soon as you can,

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both dead and live.

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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Dakota Creek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:59 pm

C.J. wrote:I have access to live ducks and pigeons as well. I wanted to start with dove/quail in the yard since a mallard or woody might be too big for a 8 week old pup. I was thinking let him retrieve a wing during training and work up from there. Also I am hesitant to give him a live bird until he is at least months cause I don't want one of these pigeons poking him in the eye or anything that might freak him out.

I am using the smartworks program if that helps at all.


If you are concerned about the size of ducks with your young pup (shouldn't be as they will often drag one around if available) ... Start with pigeons NOT doves. We introduce live pigeons at 5-6 weeks weather permitting. Birds are in a bird crate where the pups can wander up, see the movement and climb all other the crate to watch the birds. Once the have been exposed to the birds this way, we move to lock winged pigeons that Rick posted the photos of. I say "not doves" as older dogs can initially have initial issues in picking up doves until well exposed to them and you want your pup's first experience to be a positive one!
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Spry Yellowdog » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:43 pm

If using harvested birds from your season two things I recommend. Looking for any exposed sharp broken wing bones.
And excessive blood all over the feathers. The blood makes the pup only want to lick them which can become a
habit with a youngster. And remove any sharp bones so the little feller can't hurt himself. Clean em up and let em party!

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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby copterdoc » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:05 am

Labs wrote:Try training with a bucket full of wood ducks, and a CO stops by. Mallards are most commonly used as training ducks, and they usually don't say boo about that...train with pheasants in IA, MN, or SD, you better have proof that they were pen raised, or you WILL get a ticket...
Nonsense.

I train with woodies, divers, chickens, pigeons and both hen and rooster pheasants all the time.
Especially early in the spring.

Could I get a ticket for being over the possession limit, if I am over the possession limit?
Sure.

But, I've never once had a Warden show any concern whatsoever about what birds I am carrying in a bucket, loading in the wingers, or throwing for the dogs. They ask to see my hunting license. That's it.

I do make sure that I am not training during the nesting season, on public land that isn't a designated dog training area.
They actually will bust you for that.

Training with wild birds is not wanton waste. You can use your game any way that you wish.

You don't have to actually eat it all. If consumption is the only acceptable use of game birds, getting a canvasback or sprig mounted by a Taxidermist would be illegal wanton waste.
Last edited by copterdoc on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby frydaddy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:21 pm

I was at a hunt test and while we where eating lunch one of the judges put on rubber gloves. so I asked the obvious why? the other judge answered for him. he contracted saminal poising after training with birds that had been frozen several times and then eating with out thinking about washing his hands. 3 days in the hospital was enough for him. now obviously u should wash your hands before you eat anything and this is probably a very isolated case, but I think this is relevant to part of your question.
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Re: Frozen Dove/quial/ducks ok to use for training after Tha

Postby Labs » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:32 am

copterdoc wrote:
Labs wrote:Try training with a bucket full of wood ducks, and a CO stops by. Mallards are most commonly used as training ducks, and they usually don't say boo about that...train with pheasants in IA, MN, or SD, you better have proof that they were pen raised, or you WILL get a ticket...
Nonsense.

I train with woodies, divers, chickens, pigeons and both hen and rooster pheasants all the time.
Especially early in the spring.

Could I get a ticket for being over the possession limit, if I am over the possession limit?
Sure.

But, I've never once had a Warden show any concern whatsoever about what birds I am carrying in a bucket, loading in the wingers, or throwing for the dogs. They ask to see my hunting license. That's it.

I do make sure that I am not training during the nesting season, on public land that isn't a designated dog training area.
They actually will bust you for that.

Training with wild birds is not wanton waste. You can use your game any way that you wish.

You don't have to actually eat it all. If consumption is the only acceptable use of game birds, getting a canvasback or sprig mounted by a Taxidermist would be illegal wanton waste.


Just so I can clear this up for you AGAIN....it DEPENDS on the state you are in. I'm not going to pretend I know the game laws in every state. I called my CO to see if we could use snow geese for a hunt test...and the answer I got was that I couldn't because it would be considered WANTON WASTE. And in IA, MN, and SD you better have the appropriate paperwork for your training pheasants....if you want to disregard this warning and go and train there, be my guest. While your answer may be true in your small sphere of existance, it's not a one size fits all....All I was suggesting is that the guy do some due diligence and check things out prior to getting a fine.
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