judging question

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judging question

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:37 am

so i was training with a buddy that just got into training and he wanted to run a mock started test so set up something 90 degrees apart marks were around 35-40 yards long nothing hard well the first mark comes out and dog takes off runs right past the bird and start hunting 30 yards past the bird and pushing farther out (and he did right by letting her try and work it out) so he whistles her in (no sit whistle followed by a here whistle) well on her way back in she picks up the bird. he was planning on lining her up and get her focused again and try and send her again which you can do in started.

so my question is would that count as a handle on a mark or is it just you and the pup got lucky? i ask because i knew what he was trying to do but told him a judge may count it as a handle which you dont want to do in started but doesnt put you out if you only handle on one mark.
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Re: judging question

Postby i_willie12 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:58 am

Its not counted as a "handle" Every one thinks its a "handle" Its a mark down on "marking"! No where on our judges sheet does it say handle..

As a judge your judging
1. Marking ability and memory
2. Nose
3. Hunting desire
4. Control
5. Hunting style

He stubled the bird.. Needs to show better marking ability on the next birds
MARKING ABILITY AND MEMORY
The Judge must score on whether the retriever truly
marked and remembered the bird, or if it merely stumbled
upon it while wildly running around the field. Also, a
retriever that must be handled to a marked fall does not
demonstrate marking ability. Serious faults, which would
be grounds for failure, would include:
1. Failure to find a bird;
2. Throwing an object to aid the dog; and
3. Excessive handling to marks that the retriever
should have seen.
The Judge should score a retriever lower for poor
marking, repeated handling on marks, leaving the hunt
area, and disturbing too much cover
"Some people pride themselves on how far they can shoot ducks others pride themselves on how close they can get them. I'm an other!!! "
John Stephens RNT

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Re: judging question

Postby copterdoc » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:03 am

Yes, it is a handle on a mark.
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Re: judging question

Postby CatSquirrel » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:11 am

I would also consider it a "handle" as the handler is establishing control and recalling the dog into the bird.

Not necessarily grounds for failure in Started, unless it happens repeatedly.
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Re: judging question

Postby copterdoc » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:15 am

HRC makes a distinction between handling to the area, and handling to the bird.

If the dog puts itself in the AOF, and is hunting the AOF, but not coming up with the bird it's not that big of a deal if the Handler stops the dog with a whistle and gives a cast to put the dog on the bird.

However, at that point they now have to judge how well the dog takes direction.

Having to handle the dog to the AOF on a mark, is a whole lot worse.
And that's what it sounds like your buddy had to do in your mock test.

If the dog needs to be handled to the AOF, it essentially failed to demonstrate marking ability on that particular mark. In AKC, it would get a zero for marking on that mark. HRC doesn't score with numbers, but the dog still needs to demonstrate that it can mark a fall.
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Re: judging question

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:46 am

thanks for the responses im just really learning how to judge when i train with a local pro as in he will ask how i thought things looked with each dog . and meant to ask him about this situatuion but didnt want it to slip the brain before i got to ask him. thanks again clears up some things about handling/stumbling on a bird. to me it is easier to see when you handle on a mark with a finished dog, but is harder to judge with a started/seasoned dog because they have the chance to resend. and i say that because of this (judges manual)

Re-casting a Started Dog
The rulebook states:
VIII. The hunting retriever can be cast from the retrieving line a maximum of two (2)
times. If the hunting retriever is unproductive after a second attempt, the Judge
will instruct the Handler to pick up the hunting retriever and that the test is failed.
In the event the Started dog can’t find the bird and is leaving the Hunt Area, the judges might
want to advise the handler to recall the dog and re-send it. This does not mean the bird is rethrown,
nor does it mean a dog gets two chances to mark a bird!
Started Test Rules: Only one bird is allowed per mark.
NOTE: Every dog is judged the entire time it is in the field at the hunt test. The recast
does not eliminate the performance on the first attempt. Judges should note if a retrieve is
a re-cast on their score sheets.

so i guess after reading that which is a bigger mark down recalling and sending again or "handling"
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Re: judging question

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:46 am

or am i just thinking about this way to hard.
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Re: judging question

Postby copterdoc » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:53 am

krazybronco2 wrote:or am i just thinking about this way to hard.
Yeah, that.
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Re: judging question

Postby i_willie12 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:58 am

They are both a mark down for "marking ability and memory" Neither is worse than the other Resend, stuble, cast to mark Now like said on handle to mark you are getting watched for control as well so can get in double trouble there!

Anytime your dog doesnt go out there and step on the bird or hunt up the AOF and come up with the bird its a mark down "marking ability"

A lot goes into resend on lower level... Do you resend and dog go out there a step on it?? Why? Did dog get confused... Was it bird 1 of the test and dogs was excited and jacked up.. Ran around like dumb dumb then settled in on resend..
Or do you resend and and dog still run around like chicken with head cut off.. All depends on how pup does the rest of the day Thats why its 4 marks
"Some people pride themselves on how far they can shoot ducks others pride themselves on how close they can get them. I'm an other!!! "
John Stephens RNT

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Re: judging question

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:27 am

i_willie12 wrote:They are both a mark down for "marking ability and memory" Neither is worse than the other Resend, stuble, cast to mark Now like said on handle to mark you are getting watched for control as well so can get in double trouble there!

Anytime your dog doesnt go out there and step on the bird or hunt up the AOF and come up with the bird its a mark down "marking ability"

A lot goes into resend on lower level... Do you resend and dog go out there a step on it?? Why? Did dog get confused... Was it bird 1 of the test and dogs was excited and jacked up.. Ran around like dumb dumb then settled in on resend..
Or do you resend and and dog still run around like chicken with head cut off.. All depends on how pup does the rest of the day Thats why its 4 marks


thanks for the light bulb moment there cause i think it just clicked.
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Re: judging question

Postby Labs » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:29 am

Based on what you describe, that is a handle. The dog established a hunt, deep of the AOF and was handled back to it. Regardless if the handler had given up, or if he was actually trying to handle the dog back to the AOF, and bird.
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