Pass/Fail rate

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Pass/Fail rate

Postby rivercountry » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:27 am

I am totally new to the hunt test game but have had a great time up to this point training and running my young dog. He ran great in the season level, we ran 4 for 4 and he titled in two weekends. I made a few mistakes but luckily he carried me well. My question is what would be an acceptable pass/fail percentage when running finished level test. I know you should always shoot for 100% but being realistic I know that is not possible. There will be days that you fail a test whether it is due to error on the dog’s part or error on the handler. Hopefully my dog will run his first finish test this weekend. I wasn’t able to get him in this particular event it filled up so quickly but, due to another female coming in season a pro trainer I know may sub him in on their trailer. If not, I already have in the next three events closest to me 3 1/2 hours being the furthers away. Depending on how well he does I don’t think I want to just title him and call it quits but, I don’t want spin my wheels chasing a rainbow that’s not within reach either. I know this question will sound stupid to some but it’s an honest question that I have thought about since we ran seasoned.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby kwacksmacker » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:18 am

finished is just a seasoned with an extra mark and no walk up, at least i haven't seen one. hot blinds and an honor. i always go to a test with the notion we are going to pass or i don't go. as far as acceptable pass/fail rate, that answer lies with you. HRC will be glad to keep taking the entry money as long as you keep wanting to spend it. You want to stress over pass/fail stuff, check out master venues at AKC. some of them are becoming little quals but i sure enjoy the heck out of running them. hence, we win some we lose some.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby copterdoc » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:31 am

They take walk-ups in HRC the day of the test. Just because a test is full, doesn't mean the you can't possibly enter it.

Call the Hunt Secretary ahead of time, and let them know that you would like to be put on the "list" if somebody scratches. You might be third or fourth in line, and still get to run.

Show up early, give the Hunt Secretary your filled out premium, and go help set up and work the test. Even if you don't get to run, you still get to learn a bunch, and meet new people that you can learn a lot more from.

As far as pass/fail rates are concerned, it depends on the individual.

I haven't failed many HRC tests, but I've failed a bunch of AKC tests. On the other hand, I also train with some people that seem to breeze through Master tests like it's nothing, but always do something to screw themselves out of a ribbon in Finished.

It might be a mental thing for me. I'm more relaxed when running HRC, and I don't think that I make as many mistakes in a Finished test as I do in a Master test.

My dogs are of course always perfect, so it couldn't possibly be their fault right? :sarcmark:
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:17 am

In the AKC world some make their decision to run Master based on the Judges listed. From a Pass/Fail perspective.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby i_willie12 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:05 am

I think average pass/fail at a finished test is 60% range... Since it as high as 80% of flight pass and as low as 5% pass

Not many young dogs go from seasoned to finished and pass 100% Normally only 100% pass rate dogs are older dogs that were MH or AFC,FC dogs that just came over to the HRC world We went 4-7 and titled by 26 months but he is a special dog Buddies dog probably failed 50 test!!!!!!! NO LIE so his rate is like 5% and titled at 6 years old My dog was born, titled all three levels and had ran 2 grands before his dog title hrch It just depends on the dog and a little luck

Dont worry about pass/fail!! Just run the test and have fun!! Its a big step from seasoned to finished!! Go watch several test and see what finished is all about and truely ask yourself this question.. "are we ready for this??" If you dont say Yup right away your not!!! Train more and get ready! Dont walk to a line thinking God i hope we get through this.. Walk to the line knowing you can handle this! :thumbsup:
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby labman63 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:56 pm

Depends if you pick judges to run under or run whoever is judging. The master last weekend at a local test had an A and B flight. A passed 24 of 57 and B passed 42 of 55. (numbers are close I just kinda glanced). Just goes to show you what difference some judges make.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby rivercountry » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:24 pm

Thanks for all the reply's guys. I have been to several test so far to spectate and the two when I ran him in seasoned when I ran him in seasoned. Most of the test I saw I feel really sure he could pass and a couple that I didn't think any dog could pass that were set up by a Grand judge. I honestly watch 19 dogs run the first series which was water and 17 fail to even finish the series. That was a super tough test and what few dogs did pass it were fine retrievers, a mediocre dog would have never passed that test. He really is a nice dog and a far better dog than I am a handler so I believe he will do well. To be honest in the beginning planned on and promise my wife that when we got his seasoned title we would done. Well that was a lie it was way to much fun. She went with me to the test and she had a ball so that made it ok when I said lets keep training and run him in finished this spring. She just said ok lets do it God I love that woman.

Doc I am third on the waiting list I called the day it filled up but no calls yet. No matter though I am going to sub him in for a female that came in. Just got to try to swing the time off of work at the last minute.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:49 pm

rivercountry wrote:Thanks for all the reply's guys. I have been to several test so far to spectate and the two when I ran him in seasoned when I ran him in seasoned. Most of the test I saw I feel really sure he could pass and a couple that I didn't think any dog could pass that were set up by a Grand judge. I honestly watch 19 dogs run the first series which was water and 17 fail to even finish the series. That was a super tough test and what few dogs did pass it were fine retrievers, a mediocre dog would have never passed that test. He really is a nice dog and a far better dog than I am a handler so I believe he will do well. To be honest in the beginning planned on and promise my wife that when we got his seasoned title we would done. Well that was a lie it was way to much fun. She went with me to the test and she had a ball so that made it ok when I said lets keep training and run him in finished this spring. She just said ok lets do it God I love that woman.

Doc I am third on the waiting list I called the day it filled up but no calls yet. No matter though I am going to sub him in for a female that came in. Just got to try to swing the time off of work at the last minute.


That's what its about. As has been said - some judges are harder than others and some I'd disagree their motivation was judging against a standard rather than the best 30% of dogs. There's also the judge in comparison to the level of dog. It would make sense a first Master run might be hard when 80% of the dogs are coming out of Master National if the judge compares dogs and not focused on Standard.

Like most things, if it involves people it involves opinion.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby kwacksmacker » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:18 am

i look for judges that test us. title doesn't mean squat if they hand it to you
totals for 09/10 season
5 bald eagles, 3 swans, 475 hen canvassbacks, 37 pintails, 400 teal blue wings and the season hasn't even started.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby rivercountry » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:46 am

kwacksmacker wrote: title doesn't mean squat if they hand it to you

I agree 100% I dont want anything just handed to me and I hope thats not what it sounded like in my original post. He has passed 5 out 6 tests so far. 4 season passes and 1 finished pass. I didn’t grumble about the fail he got in finished. I may not have agreed completely but, I also know that my dog is more than capable of doing better work on the blind than he showed that particular day. He didn’t meet the standard that the judges were looking for, so we suck it up go back and train more and hit it again this weekend.
Last edited by rivercountry on Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:06 am

kwacksmacker wrote:i look for judges that test us. title doesn't mean squat if they hand it to you


So you'll pass on an opportunity to test if you don't think the judges will be tough enough?

Think the guys who figure the gifts and gotchas will equal out and try to accept both with grace probably have the right idea.
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Pass/Fail rate

Postby kwacksmacker » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:38 pm

Nope, nor did I say that. I run test when I can. I have ran all 3 hrc and all 3 akc tests. We have ran upwards of mid 20 tests and dropped 3 and the three we dropped we deserved to drop. We have ran several that we got a ribbon and felt no sense of accomplishment, we have ran several and got a ribbon that totally smoked me mentally. Those are the ones I love. Ran an AKC masters that I failed my dog, not vice versa, it was all me. Noted the judges and looked for an travelled to run under them again. Passed it the next test and thanked them for kicking my butt in the first one and was on top of the world. If they just handed the titles out, there would be no reason to run them in the first place
totals for 09/10 season
5 bald eagles, 3 swans, 475 hen canvassbacks, 37 pintails, 400 teal blue wings and the season hasn't even started.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby Rick Hall » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:23 am

Ahh. Sounds like you might ought to try trialing, too.

Me, I don't give half a hoot about test ribbons and titles, so for my purposes, I'm content just testing against the written standard. As long as a judge stays within those guidelines as they're explained in the Judges and Handlers' Seminar, he's fine with me. If not, I suppose I might be irritated, but I'd still probably learn if Pup is where I think he ought to be in a heightened atmosphere, and we'll still have done the training that got him to wherever he is.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:55 am

It's normally Junior I would feel the pass rate is too easy. The theory is that because people are sometimes newer, the pass/fail rate should be relaxed in order to keep them excited about the sport and encourage participation.

While I agree new handlers should be given every advantage, positive experience and help...I don't agree the dog shouldn't be competent and show training aptitude and drive. Happens often in AKC a dog not worth it's weight in dog food passes juniors with poor performance then titles and gets put to stud. Junior being the only level ever run. A Junior title on a dog appears enough for some naive hunters to assume those pups will be 'good enough' for just a hunting dog.

A lot of people claim a JH title doesn't mean squat. In some cases they are right and in some cases wrong. Doesn't really depend on the title, depends on the dog.

Master a bit more complicated. However I recall hanging with a salty old group at one event where several complained all morning Saturday the judges were too easy. Most failed the second series.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:51 am

HNTFSH wrote:It's normally Junior I would feel the pass rate is too easy. The theory is that because people are sometimes newer, the pass/fail rate should be relaxed in order to keep them excited about the sport and encourage participation.

While I agree new handlers should be given every advantage, positive experience and help...I don't agree the dog shouldn't be competent and show training aptitude and drive. Happens often in AKC a dog not worth it's weight in dog food passes juniors with poor performance then titles and gets put to stud. Junior being the only level ever run. A Junior title on a dog appears enough for some naive hunters to assume those pups will be 'good enough' for just a hunting dog.

A lot of people claim a JH title doesn't mean squat. In some cases they are right and in some cases wrong. Doesn't really depend on the title, depends on the dog.

Master a bit more complicated. However I recall hanging with a salty old group at one event where several complained all morning Saturday the judges were too easy. Most failed the second series.


never tell the judges the test was to easy! bad karma!

but at our test this weekend sat saw finished at around 30-50% pass on sat, seasoned was quite high for both sat and sunday. (alot of the dogs were close to finished level) and started was as usual really high for both sat and sunday. now on sunday i know 2 out of 3 finished flights were a blood bath in the morning. i know one was on water and to start was an invitaion blind and if you passed the blind you got to see the marks from what i heard with in 2.5/3 hours only 6 dogs had seen the marks.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby rivercountry » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:12 am

Yep, we were one of the 23 dogs that got slaughtered in that morning water test. It was definitely a buzz kill after the run he had on Saturday; guess that’s why they say Sundays/Fundays. Blind didn’t really look that bad but, it sure crushed a lot of dogs. If I am not mistaken there was at least one GRHRCH that failed that test as well. I was still really proud of the pass on Saturday. Time to train more and go at it again in a couple weeks.
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Re: Pass/Fail rate

Postby tenfingergrip » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:24 am

To your original question, here is the AKC pass-rate percentage for Hunt Test completions for the last four years if that's any help.



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Hunt test pass fail.jpg
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