Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Share hunting dog tips, hunting dog training questions or links of interest here.

Moderators: captainkevan, swampbilly 1980, HNTFSH, hunt-chessies

Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby luken » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:01 pm

I just started collar conditioning and it was going well with the place, here, and sit. Then I would throw her fun bumpers and now she walks out about halfway to it and just looks at me. I have to walk out and send her from there and then most of the time shell pick it up other times she'll run out to it and won't pick it up. She has never done this before I started collar conditioning. Also on remote sits while she's away from me she runs all the way to me before she sits. This is my first time training a retriever hoping to get some advice.

Also she has not been force fetched yet
luken
Newb
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:41 pm


Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:55 pm

luken wrote:....Also she has not been force fetched yet.....
Don't intermix episodes of applying the E-collar and retrieving, until AFTER the dog has completed collar conditioning, FF, collar fetch, AND FTP.

The pressure of CC, has succeeded in sucking all the "fun" out of the fun bumper.
You can make them fun again, but you have to separate the two. Never mix them together during the same session.
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:03 pm

I like to start and end my OB and CC sessions with a few fun bumpers. However, by the time I start formalizing OB (using pressure), I have already spent a lot of time marking, and teaching the dog what a fun bumper is.

By the time I use them as fun bumpers, the dog knows that they are fun, that they mean fun, and the cue(s) that I use before they happen.

And eventually that is what cues the dog that a training session is about to start, or that it is about to end.

I don't use them to bring the dog up during a session. That just conditions the dog to end the session by getting down.

I use them as a reward for finally getting it "right" enough times in a row that the session can be ended. That teaches the dog to enjoy success.
Last edited by copterdoc on Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby luken » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:08 pm

Understood. Thanks for the advice.
luken
Newb
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:49 pm

It is very strange that if you haven't used the collar for ff, she is stopping retrieving. Usually, this doesn't rear it's head until during ff. Obviously, your sit is very weak or the dog would sit. I believe you have made HERE your default response, and that's a good thing because it's one of the most important commands, but you now have to reinforce the others as well. I'm not sure why you're teaching "place", it's really a superfluous command. When you say SIT, DOWN, etc. the dog should stay in that position until another command is given.

I'd work a little more on sit, using a heeling stick for reinforcement with the collar. The dog should have been thoroughly conditioned to the stick though before you started the collar. If I am having trouble with a dog coming to me and sitting, I'll double rope them in a heartbeat. It makes it very easy on the dog and you and ends frustration in both of you. I run one rope from me to the dog, another from the snap on the lead, around a pulley, tree, steak, whoa post, etc., and back to me. No I have to ropes in my hand. I can pull the dog to me and stimulate it with the collar, or stop it at any point with the other rope. You have total control of the dog at all times. It is a skill that's becoming lost, but it is the fastest, easiest way to control a dog you are having a problem with.
Since you're not working on fetch or back, work on "kennel" with the collar. A dog should learn to all three facets of the ecollar when being conditioned: to stop, to come, to go. The kennel command replaces fetch and teaches the dog to move from you. Now you will have a dog that moves from you, to you, and stops on command.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:08 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:It is very strange that if you haven't used the collar for ff, she is stopping retrieving......
Why is it very strange?

It happens all the time when a new trainer puts the juice to a dog for some act of disobedience, (often repeatedly) and the dog hasn't been thoroughly forced to fetch in response to the E-collar.

Indirect pressure works in more ways than one. It can also punish behaviors that we don't want to punish.
Like fetching.
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:34 pm

I think it strange because until,the collar is actually used for fetch, most dogs keep on happily running for a happy bumper. It's usually only when ff is started that retrieving problems develop.

There would have to be a lot of heat put on a dog to stop running for a happy bumper.

Which is why I was and am a great believer in collar conditioning only after then is nearly complete.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:48 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I think it strange because until,the collar is actually used for fetch, most dogs keep on happily running for a happy bumper. It's usually only when ff is started that retrieving problems develop.

Which is why I was and am a great believer in collar conditioning only after then is nearly complete.
Some dogs hate the yard. I'm sure that you know that.

They are typically labeled "soft" and are easy to get down. It is intuitive for a new trainer to respond by giving the dog what it wants, in order to get it's "spirits up" during the session.

The problem is that ending a session on a "good note" doesn't just mean that you were successful in "cheering the dog up" before ending the session.

If you keep using fun bumpers to "correct" for the dog demonstrating confusion about pressure, all you will ultimately accomplish is to remove everything that the dog finds rewarding in a fun bumper.
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:09 pm

Most trainers use fun bumpers. Doesn't matter whether the dog does good or bad. A good trainer tries to give a dog a positive view of the end of every training session. Typically, it's only in ff when this sometimes can't be done.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:20 pm

It's far better to simplify towards the end of each session, so that the dog succeeds in what is being worked on, (even if that means backing up) than it is to keep rewarding failure with fun bumpers.

The main reason that more dogs sour on fun bumpers during FF, than during OB/CC is that most trainers put a lot more pressure on a dog during FF than they do during OB/CC.

If they were relying on fun bumpers as a "pick me up" in prior training, FF is when the wheels will fall off that particular bus.

The ultimate "pick me up" for a dog that is going through the yard, is finally understanding what the pressure means.
When they get to that point, they quit getting "down".
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby luken » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:29 pm

I'm hoping I'm on the right track she has been doing informal obedience since day 1 she has been introduced to water and shotgun she is steady on marks. We are working on hand signals with baseball drill. I've shot her some pigeons. She has had ob using a heel stick as well. She is 4 1/2 months I was skeptical about even starting cc this young but I read some other threads on here saying people they cc at 4 or 5 months. She is pretty solid on her commands so I thought we'd try. Am i on the right track do I need to slow down a bit is there things I should be focusing on more? I am really interested in dog training I have been reading as many sources as I can and I like hearing from all of you. Thanks for the replies so far.
luken
Newb
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:07 pm

copterdoc wrote:It's far better to simplify towards the end of each session, so that the dog succeeds in what is being worked on, (even if that means backing up) than it is to keep rewarding failure with fun bumpers.

Git what your saying 'Doc, but not every training session can be "idiot proofed" or simplified to the point where the dog succeeds in the entire concept you're trying to teach. Only way a dog will know it's an epic failure is if you tell it so.

Fun bumpers aren't like the guy who still gets a paycheck despite poor work performance for the previous week. Fun bumpers aren't "rewards" I'd believe a dog dreams about everynite in it's sleep.

They're about the unwinding of or relieveing the monotony of a training session whether the dog was totally successful or not.
Swampbilly1980- I got a feeva',..and the only cure is more Mergansers and face paint.
User avatar
swampbilly 1980
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 9104
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Gloucester,Va.

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:30 am

Our views of the progression of training sessions could not differ more Doc.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
hunter
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:30 am

luken wrote:I just started collar conditioning and it was going well with the place, here, and sit. Then I would throw her fun bumpers and now she walks out about halfway to it and just looks at me. I have to walk out and send her from there and then most of the time shell pick it up other times she'll run out to it and won't pick it up. She has never done this before I started collar conditioning. Also on remote sits while she's away from me she runs all the way to me before she sits. This is my first time training a retriever hoping to get some advice.

Also she has not been force fetched yet


Sounds to me like maybe you mis-timed/mis-used a correction for "here" and made her fearful of going "out there". Also, is she teething, and not wanting to pick up the bumper because of that? As far as coming to you on the remote sit, if she has only had sit work at heel, she thinks that is where she needs to be before sitting. Put the collar away and revisit the basics until she is done teething and you have learned to use the collar correctly (preferably with the help of a pro), then FF her (also with some help from a pro).
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
User avatar
Dawnsearlylight
hunter
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:19 pm
Location: western NY

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:58 am

luken wrote:I'm hoping I'm on the right track she has been doing informal obedience since day 1 she has been introduced to water and shotgun she is steady on marks. We are working on hand signals with baseball drill. I've shot her some pigeons. She has had ob using a heel stick as well. She is 4 1/2 months I was skeptical about even starting cc this young but I read some other threads on here saying people they cc at 4 or 5 months. She is pretty solid on her commands so I thought we'd try. Am i on the right track do I need to slow down a bit is there things I should be focusing on more? I am really interested in dog training I have been reading as many sources as I can and I like hearing from all of you. Thanks for the replies so far.


You were right to be skeptical and you should follow your gut not what some internet post says. I hate Evan Graham who suggests 4 months is the timeline to begin CC. Or anyone for that matter.

Perhaps the finest dog proven Pro with the right animal but I don't see many (read any) newbies with a dog ready for collar pressure at that age. More over, any pups that have been through introducing formal obedience at that age as a prelude to CC.

And Baseball, three handed casting? Really?

Slow the Hell down. Your dog is telling you to.
Cabela's Worlds FARCEMOST Outfitter
User avatar
HNTFSH
Mr. Plond
 
Posts: 19448
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby Duckdon » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:10 am

HNTFSH wrote:
luken wrote:I'm hoping I'm on the right track she has been doing informal obedience since day 1 she has been introduced to water and shotgun she is steady on marks. We are working on hand signals with baseball drill. I've shot her some pigeons. She has had ob using a heel stick as well. She is 4 1/2 months I was skeptical about even starting cc this young but I read some other threads on here saying people they cc at 4 or 5 months. She is pretty solid on her commands so I thought we'd try. Am i on the right track do I need to slow down a bit is there things I should be focusing on more? I am really interested in dog training I have been reading as many sources as I can and I like hearing from all of you. Thanks for the replies so far.


You were right to be skeptical and you should follow your gut not what some internet post says. I hate Evan Graham who suggests 4 months is the timeline to begin CC. Or anyone for that matter.

Perhaps the finest dog proven Pro with the right animal but I don't see many (read any) newbies with a dog ready for collar pressure at that age. More over, any pups that have been through introducing formal obedience at that age as a prelude to CC.

And Baseball, three handed casting? Really?

Slow the Hell down. Your dog is telling you to.



Hntfsh
You make an excellent point.

OP, you are moving WAY to fast. Slow down, do it right and get there faster.
What is your current program which has you doing that advanced level of training at 4.5 months?

I suggest you put the collar away for now. Get 2-3 good DVD 's on FF and collar conditioning. Study them over and over and then seek hands on advice from a local, pro on the subject. It will help you in leaps and bounds.
That said, I start my pups on the collar at between 4 and 5 months if I deem them ready.
Don
Forgive me for being arrogant. I own 2 Drahthaar's.
User avatar
Duckdon
hunter
 
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:38 am
Location: Chugiak, Alaska

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby luken » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:04 am

Ok problem solved first thing this morning with fun bumpers they are now fun again. As for the cc I will just leave the collar on during sessions without any pressure from it. As far as a specific program I'm not using one I have taken things I like from a lot of sources and sort of meshing them into what I like to start and changing them to suit my dog. My ultimate goal is to have a family dog and a hunting dog I'm not interested in field trials right now.
luken
Newb
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:10 pm

luken wrote:Ok problem solved first thing this morning with fun bumpers they are now fun again. As for the cc I will just leave the collar on during sessions without any pressure from it. As far as a specific program I'm not using one I have taken things I like from a lot of sources and sort of meshing them into what I like to start and changing them to suit my dog. My ultimate goal is to have a family dog and a hunting dog I'm not interested in field trials right now.


FYI - my post had nothing to do with your fun bumper problem or field trials. The message went over your head.
Cabela's Worlds FARCEMOST Outfitter
User avatar
HNTFSH
Mr. Plond
 
Posts: 19448
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:14 pm

Duckdon wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
luken wrote:I'm hoping I'm on the right track she has been doing informal obedience since day 1 she has been introduced to water and shotgun she is steady on marks. We are working on hand signals with baseball drill. I've shot her some pigeons. She has had ob using a heel stick as well. She is 4 1/2 months I was skeptical about even starting cc this young but I read some other threads on here saying people they cc at 4 or 5 months. She is pretty solid on her commands so I thought we'd try. Am i on the right track do I need to slow down a bit is there things I should be focusing on more? I am really interested in dog training I have been reading as many sources as I can and I like hearing from all of you. Thanks for the replies so far.


You were right to be skeptical and you should follow your gut not what some internet post says. I hate Evan Graham who suggests 4 months is the timeline to begin CC. Or anyone for that matter.

Perhaps the finest dog proven Pro with the right animal but I don't see many (read any) newbies with a dog ready for collar pressure at that age. More over, any pups that have been through introducing formal obedience at that age as a prelude to CC.

And Baseball, three handed casting? Really?

Slow the Hell down. Your dog is telling you to.



Hntfsh
You make an excellent point.

OP, you are moving WAY to fast. Slow down, do it right and get there faster.
What is your current program which has you doing that advanced level of training at 4.5 months?

I suggest you put the collar away for now. Get 2-3 good DVD 's on FF and collar conditioning. Study them over and over and then seek hands on advice from a local, pro on the subject. It will help you in leaps and bounds.
That said, I start my pups on the collar at between 4 and 5 months if I deem them ready.
Don


C'mon duckdon. We all realize getting pups at 5 weeks makes them think we're their parents and pushing dogs too hard at 16 weeks makes them better retrievers. Right?
Cabela's Worlds FARCEMOST Outfitter
User avatar
HNTFSH
Mr. Plond
 
Posts: 19448
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:40 pm

luken wrote:I just started collar conditioning and it was going well with the place, here, and sit. Then I would throw her fun bumpers and now she walks out about halfway to it and just looks at me. I have to walk out and send her from there and then most of the time shell pick it up other times she'll run out to it and won't pick it up. She has never done this before I started collar conditioning. Also on remote sits while she's away from me she runs all the way to me before she sits. This is my first time training a retriever hoping to get some advice.

Also she has not been force fetched yet


You don't even begin to know enough to be making judgements that allow you to modify training programs. And "just a hunting dog" requires the same foundation as any other working retriever.
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
User avatar
Dawnsearlylight
hunter
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:19 pm
Location: western NY

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby Duckdon » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:50 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Duckdon wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
luken wrote:I'm hoping I'm on the right track she has been doing informal obedience since day 1 she has been introduced to water and shotgun she is steady on marks. We are working on hand signals with baseball drill. I've shot her some pigeons. She has had ob using a heel stick as well. She is 4 1/2 months I was skeptical about even starting cc this young but I read some other threads on here saying people they cc at 4 or 5 months. She is pretty solid on her commands so I thought we'd try. Am i on the right track do I need to slow down a bit is there things I should be focusing on more? I am really interested in dog training I have been reading as many sources as I can and I like hearing from all of you. Thanks for the replies so far.


You were right to be skeptical and you should follow your gut not what some internet post says. I hate Evan Graham who suggests 4 months is the timeline to begin CC. Or anyone for that matter.

Perhaps the finest dog proven Pro with the right animal but I don't see many (read any) newbies with a dog ready for collar pressure at that age. More over, any pups that have been through introducing formal obedience at that age as a prelude to CC.

And Baseball, three handed casting? Really?

Slow the Hell down. Your dog is telling you to.



Hntfsh
You make an excellent point.

OP, you are moving WAY to fast. Slow down, do it right and get there faster.
What is your current program which has you doing that advanced level of training at 4.5 months?

I suggest you put the collar away for now. Get 2-3 good DVD 's on FF and collar conditioning. Study them over and over and then seek hands on advice from a local, pro on the subject. It will help you in leaps and bounds.
That said, I start my pups on the collar at between 4 and 5 months if I deem them ready.
Don


C'mon duckdon. We all realize getting pups at 5 weeks makes them think we're their parents and pushing dogs too hard at 16 weeks makes them better retrievers. Right?


Hntfsh?
You lost me but then I am slow.
5 weeks?
16 weeks makes a better retriever?

My impression would be that you feel that I am pushing a dog to fast just because I intro an e-collar at between 4 and 5 months. That's your opinion. To my knowledge you have never trained with me or been to any tests with me so not sure how that opinion would be formed.
I intro pups at between 4 to 5 months to the e-collar because for me it just works. That is where I am seeing them move to being more independent, something I encourage in a versatile dog. I start the e-collar once pup knows "here" on the check cord. As pup understands responding to the e-collar the check cord is phased out.
Not sure how Evan does it as I have never followed his programs so no comment in that direction.
Not saying my way is the only way but it does work, at least for me.
Don
Forgive me for being arrogant. I own 2 Drahthaar's.
User avatar
Duckdon
hunter
 
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:38 am
Location: Chugiak, Alaska

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:56 pm

Duckdon wrote:
Hntfsh?
You lost me but then I am slow.
5 weeks?
16 weeks makes a better retriever?

My impression would be that you feel that I am pushing a dog to fast just because I intro an e-collar at between 4 and 5 months. That's your opinion. To my knowledge you have never trained with me or been to any tests with me so not sure how that opinion would be formed.
I intro pups at between 4 to 5 months to the e-collar because for me it just works. That is where I am seeing them move to being more independent, something I encourage in a versatile dog. I start the e-collar once pup knows "here" on the check cord. As pup understands responding to the e-collar the check cord is phased out.
Not sure how Evan does it as I have never followed his programs so no comment in that direction.
Not saying my way is the only way but it does work, at least for me.
Don


Don I was being sarcastic. I don't follow Evan either but I do know he regularly purports that 4 months is a good age. He will add the caveat if the dog is 'ready' however he must also believe people don't skip basics. Plus, (again personally) I am training a dog as Gonehuntin' stated - a confident, bird lovin' fool. Pressure can wait for some maturity but good habits can begin day 1.
Cabela's Worlds FARCEMOST Outfitter
User avatar
HNTFSH
Mr. Plond
 
Posts: 19448
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:53 am

you asked for suggestions...put collar on your own leg and continue training as you were up till that point in time that it went pear shaped...dog will go back to being happy you may have to get right back to basics and work back up to pear point.
dog was going fine up till then so I see no reason it wont get back to that again...as for the collar...push button if you feel the need, personally I wouldnt :beer:
User avatar
Elvis Kiwi
hunter
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am
Location: South Island New Zealand

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby luken » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:15 pm

Just updating those who had some good advice. Pup is doing great with OB. Heeling off leash, remote sit is slow but shes getting much better, here is solid, sit is steady. I have been sitting her out a ways throwing a bumper off to the side calling her here and she will ignore the mark until I send her from my side or with a cast. Just going to keep working on OB, marks, casting, and very simple blinds until she gets some new teeth then we will work with hold and FF. I'm still open to advice and suggestions.
luken
Newb
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Trouble with collar conditioning any suggestions?

Postby banknote » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:14 pm

I did not do CC, so I can't help you with that, but when my pup was about the same age as yours and prior to FF, he went through a faze where he'd blink on bumpers and go check out some other smell, pick up a stick, a leaf, whatever, all the while checking me out of the corner of his eye, so I knew he was being obstinate. I would not say a word, but start to walk away and he would naturally begin to follow. When he'd catch up and start to overcome me, I'd immediately switch direction, without a word, and he would switch to follow the new direction. I'd do this 6-8 times, and each time he'd get a little more attuned to me, make his switch just a little quicker. After he was totally tuned back in, I'd heel him and send him back to the same mark and he'd go right for it.

YMMV
banknote
hunter
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:40 pm

Next

Return to Hunting Dog Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jedwaterfowl and 14 guests