Force Fetching

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Do you use any kind of FF method?

Yes, I do use some kind of FF method
12
71%
NO, I do not use any kind of FF method
5
29%
 
Total votes : 17

Force Fetching

Postby gsphunter » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:56 am

Hey guys I just wanted to get some discussion going. I wanted to know how many of you guys use any kind of FF method. Maybe discuss why you do or don't.

I am in the ending phases of FF with my 1.5 year old shorthair. The difference in her retrieving is unbelievable. Her drive to retrieve is still the same, which she had plenty of before I FFed. The difference is the preciseness. There is no more head shaking, chomping, spitting out and picking it back up. Another advantage I see is having the means to correct a refusal when necessary. If only natural desire to retrieve is used then what do you do if the dog refuses one day? It's a long process to do it right, but in my opinion it's worth it.

Let's hear other people's thoughts on it.
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Postby shrpshtr » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:23 am

not to bash the method, etc. but i don't agree with it. i personally don't see the benefit of causing pain to my dog for something i can teach him to do without it. just my opinion...
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Postby mfetter » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:55 am

Strong believer in it! The before and afters are amazing. I think my dog forgave me for what VERY LITTLE discomfort he recieved.
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Postby harvey1b » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:01 am

gsphunter and mfetter, I'm with you. I just finished the FF with my 1 yr lab. The difference is night and day. As you say, the drive hasn't changed but her focus has. Instead of looking all around she is concentrated on the bumper, bird, or whatever. On the rare occasion of a drop I have an easy correction. I was a skeptic and intimidated by the method before going through it. Now that I have done it I can't imagine any other way.

One final word . . . a big thanks to SteveInTN for help and insite. He was a great reference with all my questions for this my first FF training.

:salude: :thumbsup:

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Postby SCoutdoorsman » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:23 am

Have not had to use it on mine, but its never to far out of questions but I dont think i would like doing it if I had to.
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Postby shrpshtr » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:01 pm

do y'all know of any literature available on the web with directions of how to use the FF training method? i would like to read through them.
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Postby 98ramtough » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:22 pm

Out of all the dogs I hunt with, I have never seen any dog be truely RELIABLE without FF. Not to knock the guys that don't do it, but once you hunt your dog next to a dog that was really trained to be reliable, you will see the difference. FF makes a more reliable mutt.


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Postby harvey1b » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:03 pm

here's an article I found on FF training.

http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html

I followed the steps layed out in the Wolters "Water Dog" video. It is strait forward and easy to follow. Like all training you have to be consistant, persistant, and train regularly. If you are considering the FF training I would recommend using the video.

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Postby shrpshtr » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:07 pm

thanks harvey. i am not really interested in using this method. i just wanted to read up on it...
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Postby SteveInTN » Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:15 pm

shrpshtr wrote:not to bash the method, etc. but i don't agree with it. i personally don't see the benefit of causing pain to my dog for something i can teach him to do without it. just my opinion...


The REAL point of the Force Fetch is not to teach the dog new commands, even though that is what you are doing. The point is WHICH commands you are teaching them and HOW you are doing it. You teach them HOLD, GIVE, and FETCH in such a manner that you achieve the primary goal of the Force Fetch, which is:

Teaching the dog that the act of retrieving, and the individual components of the retrieve, are NOT something that they are doing for THEMSELVES. It is something they are doing for YOU.

Another great benefit is teaching the dog how to handle pressure. Just like Mr. Miagi (wax on, wax off). You teach the dog that YOU have the ability to turn the pressure ON, and the dog has the ability to turn it OFF. This can also be achieved by using other devices, such as a training collar.

ALL DOGS, whether they have been Force Fetched or not, will fail to carry out a retrieve given the right amount of distractions or adversity. A PROPERLY Force Fetched dog will require MORE distraction or adversity before it will fail, that is just the nature of the operation.

Think about it... how does the military train their troops. If they were to ask them nicely to hump 20 miles with a 30 lb rucksack and the soldier knew it was their OPTION, would they do it all the time?

Just my opinion...
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Postby shrpshtr » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:43 pm

steve, i appreciate your explanation. i don't want to come across like i disapprove of the practice wholly or believe it is some sort of cruelty. that is not the case. i was personally raised with a heavy hand and i wholeheartedly believe that it is absolutely necessary in some instances. having said that, i would only use the method if all others failed to get the desired end result.
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Postby gsphunter » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:48 pm

Probably the number one benefit I see come out of it, is the ability to correct a refusal to retrieve. My dog retrieved reliably for the most part. It was when she didn't though that you really took notice. I would frustrate the hell out of me to stand there and watch her sniff around at a bumper and then trot of like she didn't even see it.
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Postby huntmq1 » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:03 am

SteveInTN...........I wish it was ONLY 30 lbs. that I humped on my back for over 20 miles! :toofunny:
Try 75-85 lbs. So much that when I got down, I couldn't get back up. :laughing: Didn't want to highjack the thread, just wanted to break some of the tention!
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Postby heeler » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:42 am

I didn't F/F my last dog & didn't really need too,but he wasn't a finished dog either.I'm going to have my new pup F/F when the time comes by a professional trainer.If I'm gonna do it ,I want it done right.
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Postby Dixiejack » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:00 am

heeler, your last two statements are 100% corect. The money you spend to have a professional trainer teach your dog the basics will more than offset the aggravation that you and you dog will encounter. When my pup was four months old, I turned her over to a pro. trainer for 3 months. At 7 months, she had 3 passes in 3 tries in HRC hunt tests and was doing a good job on retrieving doves and ducks. I don't regret the money that I spent.
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Postby heeler » Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:10 pm

[quote="Dixiejack"]heeler, your last two statements are 100% corect. The money you spend to have a professional trainer teach your dog the basics will more than offset the aggravation that you and you dog will encounter. When my pup was four months old, I turned her over to a pro. trainer for 3 months. At 7 months, she had 3 passes in 3 tries in HRC hunt tests and was doing a good job on retrieving doves and ducks. I don't regret the money that I spent.[/quote]

Dixiejack,that's exactly what I'd like my dog to do,he'll soon be 6 mo.& the trainer I'm using has an opening.I'm not crazy about forking out that kind of money,but I think in the long run,me & rebel will be better off,better trained & my blood pressure will stay down.
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Postby gsphunter » Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:35 pm

Dixie Jack,

I'm not bashing sending dogs to trainers. They are good at what they do and you get good results from the dog. The reason I enjoy training though is because I feel a sense of accomplishment when I see that my dog is understanding what I'm teaching. My dog is not a natural backer in the field. I've been working on this the past few weeks, and yesterday my puppy stopped in the field and started sniffing something. She locked up and started backing. SUCCESS! Saying that your dog won 3 test when you got it back is great, but IMO it would feel much better knowing that you did it yourself.

Again I say that I'm not bashing the way other people do things. I know this is very common and the results can be tremendous. I just thought I'd throw my two cents in.
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