Messing around while retrieving

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Messing around while retrieving

Postby slaysession » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:09 pm

I have been steadying my dog this summer he's a 2 year old yellow lab make. We hunted half the season last year and just tied him up! This summer I've been working on making him stay next to me until I send him. He does great with staying and once I send him he goes straight for the dummy then he screws around with it before coming back. He only does this when I make him stay and watch the dummy. Before we started steadying he would go hard there and back quick. Once he finally comes back he brings the bird to heal and holds it until I take the dummy. Is this something I should be worried about?


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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:16 pm

Like other disciplines you'll find if you enforce HERE, the dog returns smartly on HERE.

When I read things about obedience issues and there's but ONE issue mentioned, I get suspicious in thinking that's not the only problem. Sometimes however it is the only problem the owner dislikes or cares enough to ask about.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby copterdoc » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:20 pm

slaysession wrote:....Is this something I should be worried about?
Yes.

While getting to the bird, and picking it up, are probably the hardest parts to a retrieve, bringing the bird back is probably the most important.

It is strange that your dog can turn birds into dummies.
That's something that you could make a lot of money out of.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby Duckdon » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:18 pm

HNTFSH wrote:Like other disciplines you'll find if you enforce HERE, the dog returns smartly on HERE.

When I read things about obedience issues and there's but ONE issue mentioned, I get suspicious in thinking that's not the only problem. Sometimes however it is the only problem the owner dislikes or cares enough to ask about.


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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby slaysession » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:50 am

Really he does great it's just this one issue since I started steadying him! He brings it back every time never drops the dummy just doesn't go straight there and straight back there's a lag there I know he knows what to so I've seen him do it before so it's a new issue. He's been ecollar conditioned so I may try a beep in the collar but I really never need it with him


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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:54 am

slaysession wrote:Really he does great it's just this one issue since I started steadying him! He brings it back every time never drops the dummy just doesn't go straight there and straight back there's a lag there I know he knows what to so I've seen him do it before so it's a new issue. He's been ecollar conditioned so I may try a beep in the collar but I really never need it with him


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Is he FF'd? If not, just what command do you plan on reinforcing with the collar? There is a huge difference between a dog "knowing what to do" and knowing that he has to do it. Also IME, it is a really really bad idea to suddenly use the collar on a dog if you are not using it consistently.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby aunt betty » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:06 am

OB. Specifically heel or here. I use heel like here.
I want the dog to sit at heel and then I will take the dummy.
Another thing to work on is HOLD. My dog wanted to just spit dummies at me and NO., I won't tolerate that.

I make him come to heel, hold, and then I will tell him drop as I'm taking the dummy from his mouth.

You might work on ff. I had to go back and start over at the table on my two-year-old as well.

This was during the drought and I had been working on ff and the same stuff OP complained about.


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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:17 am

slaysession wrote:Really he does great it's just this one issue since I started steadying him! He brings it back every time never drops the dummy just doesn't go straight there and straight back there's a lag there I know he knows what to so I've seen him do it before so it's a new issue. He's been ecollar conditioned so I may try a beep in the collar but I really never need it with him


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Just trying to be concise and informative IMO:

1. This has nothing to do with steadying the dog.
2. He hasn't been truly collar conditioned, the dog is messing with you cause he can
3. The idea of a beep won't fix anything
4. The dog is more mature than last year and doing what it wants now. You stopped OB reinforcement cause you thought you were done doing it
5. Like said, if you aren't using the collar on a regular basis, you're not using it right
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby aunt betty » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:02 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
slaysession wrote:Really he does great it's just this one issue since I started steadying him! He brings it back every time never drops the dummy just doesn't go straight there and straight back there's a lag there I know he knows what to so I've seen him do it before so it's a new issue. He's been ecollar conditioned so I may try a beep in the collar but I really never need it with him


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Just trying to be concise and informative IMO:

1. This has nothing to do with steadying the dog.
2. He hasn't been truly collar conditioned, the dog is messing with you cause he can
3. The idea of a beep won't fix anything
4. The dog is more mature than last year and doing what it wants now. You stopped OB reinforcement cause you thought you were done doing it
5. Like said, if you aren't using the collar on a regular basis, you're not using it right



#5

I missed that and it's true. The dog is working op over if he's trying to not use the collar. Saying this because I did the same thing.
Was understimulating the dog. Read somewhere where this is common and to quit being a softy.
You gotta be kind of a prick to be a good dog trainer (sort of).
Forget about being ¨nice¨.
Use that e-collar.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:23 pm

Sorry Copdoc..I accidently deleted your post while responding. Shoulda had my Walmart readers on.

You stated it may well have to do with steadying the dog. My response was:

Go ahead and explain your thoughts. Never seen a dog blow off here and returning a retrieve because of being steadied. Especially one CC'd correctly before eal retriever training started.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:43 pm

I said that it probably does have a whole lot to do with steadying the dog.
And that how much, has a lot to do with how he has been enforcing steadiness.



If you get on a dog hard enough to "make it sit" when it really doesn't want to sit, the dog had better have a really outstanding understanding of the form(s) of pressure used to "make it sit".

If it doesn't, the dog is going to have a much reduced interest in going back to the place that it was corrected. Which is a perfectly natural reaction for a dog to have.

It's why a dog lags behind you at heel, after getting nicked on sit during collar conditioning.
It's why a dog paces back and forth behind you, rather than returning to heel after getting a stick correction, or ear pinch.
It's why a dog flares the line to the back pile during FTP.

These are all behavior changes that happen due to indirect pressure. The dog associates the pressure with where it was, and/or what else it was doing at the time.

We can certainly use indirect pressure in training to get what we want. But, without the right foundation(s) in place, indirect pressure can easily punish a lot of behaviors that we want to keep.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:58 pm

copterdoc wrote:I said that it probably does have a whole lot to do with steadying the dog.
And that how much, has a lot to do with how he has been enforcing steadiness.



If you get on a dog hard enough to "make it sit" when it really doesn't want to sit, the dog had better have a really outstanding understanding of the form(s) of pressure used to "make it sit".

If it doesn't, the dog is going to have a much reduced interest in going back to the place that it was corrected. Which is a perfectly natural reaction for a dog to have.

It's why a dog lags behind you at heel, after getting nicked on sit during collar conditioning.
It's why a dog paces back and forth behind you, rather than returning to heel after getting a stick correction, or ear pinch.
It's why a dog flares the line to the back pile during FTP.

These are all behavior changes that happen due to indirect pressure. The dog associates the pressure with where it was, and/or what else it was doing at the time.

We can certainly use indirect pressure in training to get what we want. But, without the right foundation(s) in place, indirect pressure can easily punish a lot of behaviors that we want to keep.


I understand what you're saying in theory but that theory isn't the basis of what I read in the comments. Steadying a dog doesn't need to be traumatic in the least, the dog he said doesn't resist being steady and the fact he mentioned what I assume is a warning beep leads me to believe the dog wasn't stick trained on steady either. All of your examples are collar pressure. So the question to the OP would be was collar used at his side for steady. i didn't believe that was done.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:03 pm

The dog doesn't need to simply be obedient.

It needs to understand the pressure being used to enforce obedience.
That's what a dog needs to learn from basics, more than anything else.

That's why we do it in the yard.
And it's why we keep the yard training separated from the field training, until the dog has completed the yard.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:08 pm

HNTFSH wrote:....All of your examples are collar pressure....
No, they aren't.
One for sure, the second definitely not, and the third could be. But, it also happens with a buggy whip.

Pressure is pressure. Dogs seek to avoid it.
They have to seek to avoid it, in order for it to have an effect on behaviour.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:18 pm

copterdoc wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:....All of your examples are collar pressure....
No, they aren't.
One for sure, the second definitely not, and the third could be. But, it also happens with a buggy whip.


copterdoc wrote:It's why a dog lags behind you at heel, after getting nicked on sit during collar conditioning.
It's why a dog paces back and forth behind you, rather than returning to heel after getting a stick correction, or ear pinch.
It's why a dog flares the line to the back pile during FTP.


One for sure, three for sure. Like I said, I didn't get the impression a heeling stick was used. Even if so, that pressure is normal and natural to a CC'd dog, which he says it was. Your examples aren't about steadying.

I assumed a little, you assumed a lot.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:28 pm

HNTFSH wrote:....Your examples aren't about steadying.

I assumed a little, you assumed a lot.
My examples are about common indirect pressure reactions demonstrated by dogs, (even CC'd ones), that occur frequently enough that you have most likely witnessed them yourself.

I believe that the pressure that he has been using to steady the dog, is negatively effecting the dog's recall.
That is an assumption.

But, I wouldn't have said it, if I didn't consider it to be extremely likely.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:32 pm

It's possible. I suggest you own this and fix the issue for him. I kinda shut down at 'only problem'. Wish my dog only had one to work on.
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby copterdoc » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:56 pm

Actually fix a training problem on the internet?
:lol: That's funny!!!!
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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:22 pm

copterdoc wrote:Actually fix a training problem on the internet?
:lol: That's funny!!!!


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Re: Messing around while retrieving

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:57 am

The basic concept for any correction is that the dog has to understand that it is his (mis)behavior that caused it; if he doesn't understand that, he has no way to avoid the correction, and will associate it either with the place where it happened, or with who/whatever was closest to him when the correction occurred.

My questions for the OP would be: 1.When steadying, how did you correct when the dog broke?
2. What do you mean by "messing around"? Is he slow to pick, playing with the bumper on the
way back, or what?
3. How does he act when doing (swimming) water marks?

And if that is the dog's only problem, please tell us where you got him, because we all want one of those!
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