thoughts on pedigree

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thoughts on pedigree

Postby LiquidA45 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:46 pm

http://www.theretrieveracademy.com/pedi ... stormy.php

Just inherited a dog from this litter. Right now he just has a started title. Under my ownership this dog is going to be a hunting a lot. I'm on the fence regarding investing the time to further his HRC title. Just based off the limited research I've done and what I know about about Derek I feel like I might be doing a disservice to my dog and Derek by not getting his HRCH. Thoughts?
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:23 pm

Congrats on the new dog.

Guess I'm thinkin' since you can only 'hunt' a few months a year and can only train 'so much' on picking up a bird...dog may like you better if you challenge it to HRCH and/or MH. :lol3:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby buckmeister » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:27 pm

The only disservice you could do is not spend time/train the dog and not hunt the dog, the dog could give a rip about ribbons, they just know they want to train every day and go hunting. go train and hunt and hunt some more.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:31 pm

buckmeister wrote:The only disservice you could do is not spend time/train the dog and not hunt the dog, the dog could give a rip about ribbons, they just know they want to train every day and go hunting. go train and hunt and hunt some more.


Hey Buck - I can't remember since you're not on much anymore. Did you title either dog?
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby copterdoc » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:11 pm

I love hearing Buckmeister talk about his out of control FT bred choco female, and his Chessie that swims circles around her. Because when it gets in the water, it prefers to swim in circles rather than retrieve something.

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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby buckmeister » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:12 pm

I guess some of the ladies on the board thought my post was an attack on hunt test, far from it. Just an encouragement to spend time with his dog. Good luck to the original poster, sorry my post distracted from your original question, certainly not my intent.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:50 pm

buckmeister wrote:the dog could give a rip about ribbons, they just know they want to train every day and go hunting


:lol3: Buck, wasn't rippin' on ya but did wonder why you needed to point out a dog might or might not, care about a ribbon?

Wouldn't it be the teamwork, time afield, birds, and progression a dog may enjoy from being trained to accomplish a test? Not many get 12 months of birds in their mouth and certainly not a lot of guys get the help, equipment and land associated with a group training for a tests.

Yet you focus on ribbons? I asked because you sounded like one of them guys that have never run a test or earned a title but have a strong opinion on it. I honestly couldn't remember, your post spoke as if you don't get it but for some reason I thought you did.

IMO nothing better than training for cool hunting stuff but it's frankly pretty 'simple' compared to other stuff.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:22 am

buckmeister wrote:The only disservice you could do is not spend time/train the dog and not hunt the dog, the dog could give a rip about ribbons, they just know they want to train every day and go hunting. go train and hunt and hunt some more.


Aside from possible breeding opportunities hunt testing might produce for it, I think Buck's pretty much pegged the OP's question from the dog's vantage.

Don't know why DHC's resident Dog Forum experts are showing their arses over it. Habit perhaps.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:55 am

Rick Hall wrote:
buckmeister wrote:The only disservice you could do is not spend time/train the dog and not hunt the dog, the dog could give a rip about ribbons, they just know they want to train every day and go hunting. go train and hunt and hunt some more.


Aside from possible breeding opportunities hunt testing might produce for it, I think Buck's pretty much pegged the OP's question from the dog's vantage.

Don't know why DHC's resident Dog Forum experts are showing their arses over it. Habit perhaps.


What we have here is a failure to communicate.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:09 am

HNTFSH wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:
buckmeister wrote:The only disservice you could do is not spend time/train the dog and not hunt the dog, the dog could give a rip about ribbons, they just know they want to train every day and go hunting. go train and hunt and hunt some more.


Aside from possible breeding opportunities hunt testing might produce for it, I think Buck's pretty much pegged the OP's question from the dog's vantage.

Don't know why DHC's resident Dog Forum experts are showing their arses over it. Habit perhaps.


What we have here is a failure to communicate.


How so? Buckmeister's comment is spot on, IMHO. The fact that he may or may not have ever titled a dog has nothing to do with the correctness of his observation. The only "communication failure" I see here is Doc's rather mean-spirited comment, which added nothing to the discussion as far as I could see.

And as for your comment re: training for hunting stuff being "simple", phooey. Any training can be as "simple" or as advanced as you choose to make it.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:51 am

I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one that has posted in this thread so far, that has actually put an HRCH title on a dog.
And I have no opinion regarding the OP's question.

It's not a difficult title for a dog to achieve.
The difficulty is in getting yourself to the point that you can train and handle a dog well enough that it can pass the tests.

So, achieving the title isn't a service to the dog.
It's a service to you, and the dogs that you will train and handle in the future.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:56 am

copterdoc wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one that has posted in this thread so far, that has actually put an HRCH title on a dog.
And I have no opinion regarding the OP's question.

It's not a difficult title for a dog to achieve.
The difficulty is in getting yourself to the point that you can train and handle a dog well enough that it can pass the tests.

So, achieving the title isn't a service to the dog.
It's a service to you, and the dogs that you will train and handle in the future.



This is an excellent point, now why didn't you post this instead of the first one, which was totally irrelevant??

IME, most folks who desire to become a competent trainer/handler would do well to learn from a reputable pro. Their standards for a finished dog can be as high or as low as they choose, depending upon what type of "test" they want to run. I had to quit competing due to health issues; than doesn't mean I don't know good dog work when I see it, and it doesn't mean my dogs, and those of my clients who have no desire to do formal testing, are not trained to a high standard. It just means that our dogs, and our competence as trainers/handlers, are "tested" in the field rather than at a hunt test.

I have a youngster right now which, without a doubt, could be running Derby, but because she has a crippled old woman for an owner, she will never get that opportunity; that doesn't mean she is not being trained to a high level, and she is challenged every time I take her out to train (believe me, I stay up nights thinking of ways to challenge her!). I really don't think she misses running field trials in the least.

And for the record, the most pure fun I ever had with my dogs was working a commercial preserve, where the duck shoots covered 10 blinds/20 guns scattered over 50+ acres, and the dogs were working out of sight a good part of the time. Try training a dog for that! I actually had a few FT folks express amazement at the fact that my dogs would do their job (very well) on their own and out of sight, with no input from me. We would do the duck shoots where the dogs were on their own in the morning, then turn around and do upland, where control and "training" were paramount, in the afternoon, and they made the transition just fine.

I have seen my dogs do things while hunting that leave me with the realization that I have no clue how anyone would train a dog to do what they just did. You don't have to be at a hunt test, which is a very constrained venue, to see great training and dog work in action; different strokes and all that. And speaking of different strokes, my old boy, who is retired due to DM, just brought me a frozen snow goose that I had thawing in the bathtub. How's that for advanced training!

My point to the OP is simply that there are venues other than hunt tests that will make a good trainer/handler out of him, and a great partner out of his dog.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:17 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....Their standards for a finished dog can be as high or as low as they choose, depending upon what type of "test" they want to run. I had to quit competing due to health issues; than doesn't mean I don't know good dog work when I see it, and it doesn't mean my dogs, and those of my clients who have no desire to do formal testing, are not trained to a high standard. It just means that our dogs, and our competence as trainers/handlers, are "tested" in the field rather than at a hunt test........
I disagree.

A hunter doesn't have to achieve a standard. If a hunter doesn't know what a standard is, they don't know which tests are tough, and which ones are easy. They have no frame of reference. And they will NEVER learn how to actually train a Retriever.

Dawnsearlylight wrote:......I have a youngster right now which, without a doubt, could be running Derby.....
I also have a youngster right now that could be running Derby.

He wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of placing though.
And since I have never run a Derby, I don't pretend that I'll be able to tell when he's running well enough to even JAM.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby aunt betty » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:10 am

Ducks taste a lot better than ribbons.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:18 pm

copterdoc wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....Their standards for a finished dog can be as high or as low as they choose, depending upon what type of "test" they want to run. I had to quit competing due to health issues; than doesn't mean I don't know good dog work when I see it, and it doesn't mean my dogs, and those of my clients who have no desire to do formal testing, are not trained to a high standard. It just means that our dogs, and our competence as trainers/handlers, are "tested" in the field rather than at a hunt test........
I disagree.

A hunter doesn't have to achieve a standard. If a hunter doesn't know what a standard is, they don't know which tests are tough, and which ones are easy. They have no frame of reference. And they will NEVER learn how to actually train a Retriever.

Dawnsearlylight wrote:......I have a youngster right now which, without a doubt, could be running Derby.....
I also have a youngster right now that could be running Derby.

He wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of placing though.
And since I have never run a Derby, I don't pretend that I'll be able to tell when he's running well enough to even JAM.


If hunters have no standard for dog work, they might as well pick up their own birds. If they never train with a pro, the rest of your statement will be accurate, which is why I suggested doing so in the first place.

I will add the word "successfully" to the comment about my youngster. She is the first dog I have owned that I could say that about, without reservation. Do I feel that I am "doing her a disservice" by not giving her the chance to run FT's? Not only no, but hell no; and more importantly, neither does she. All she knows, or cares about, is that when Mom says "let's go to work", good stuff is gonna happen.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby cluckmeister » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:26 pm

hunter doesn't have to achieve a standard. If a hunter doesn't know what a standard is, they don't know which tests are tough, and which ones are easy. They have no frame of reference. And they will NEVER learn how to actually train a Retriever.


Doc, by reading your statement then, a working dog or dog that doesn't attend or have been trained for field trials etc isn't a retriever from your view point? I guess they should be listed in the AKC as a Labrador Duck Getter or Chesapeake Bay Duck Getter. And the hunters that train them to their own standard of what they desire in a duck dog are red headed step cousins to the guys that train dogs for field trials
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:59 pm

Let's face it, use this site as the example and proof.

MOST people who just hunt, and don't test or trial, do not train as much, as complex, or as purposefully, as those people that do. If you think otherwise you are naive.

Doesn't mean they are not happy with whatever their dog does. Whether they care or know isn't the point. The point is in the first sentence.

Also, the OP said the dog and the TRAINER regrading disservice. Ya'll missed that?

And I still don't know what the hell a ribbon has to do with anything?????? Where does that comment fit in?

And yes, trial/test training can be FAR more complex than hunting dog training. Trickier yet is blending best of both worlds performance. Go hire someone to run your promising dog in a Derby and let us know how it goes, takes the 'claim' to a new level.

I really doubt too many 'hunters' (of which I do first above testing) were out running set-ups today. Might had a few bumper tosses at the local creek or pond, a little heel exercise or gun intro - but that's about it I'd guess.

Nice weather here today though for picking up ducks! Oh yea, propagated banded ones, not the single frozen bird you may have thought to save out for training 6 months ago.

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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:05 pm

Nice park-like training site, that.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:19 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Nice park-like training site, that.


Happy to be invited. Hay cut yesterday. Got airbrushed today while training. Great opportunity on private grounds for 300/400 yard multiples, land/water/land/water marks/blinds and a newly built swim-by pond. Not to mention a couple gators to save some walking.

Also nice to run with one of the top Golden trialers in the country. Nice to see a Golden work and blow away my young lab.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby cluckmeister » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:20 pm

looks like a super place to bang at a few doves also
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:41 pm

[quote="HNTFSH"]Let's face it, use this site as the example and proof.

MOST people who just hunt, and don't test or trial, do not train as much, as complex, or as purposefully, as those people that do. If you think otherwise you are naive.

Doesn't mean they are not happy with whatever their dog does. Whether they care or know isn't the point. The point is in the first sentence.

Also, the OP said the dog and the TRAINER regrading disservice. Ya'll missed that?

And I still don't know what the hell a ribbon has to do with anything?????? Where does that comment fit in?

And yes, trial/test training can be FAR more complex than hunting dog training. Trickier yet is blending best of both worlds performance. Go hire someone to run your promising dog in a Derby and let us know how it goes, takes the 'claim' to a new level.

I really doubt too many 'hunters' (of which I do first above testing) were out running set-ups today. Might had a few bumper tosses at the local creek or pond, a little heel exercise or gun intro - but that's about it I'd guess.

Nice weather here today though for picking up ducks! Oh yea, propagated banded ones, not the single frozen bird you may have thought to save out for training 6 months ago.

Glad to see you qualify the above statements with words like "Most people", and "can be far more complex", leaves room for the outliers who train above the norm. I already agreed that the average hunter/wannabe trainer is not likely to be training to a higher level. Hell, I get guys coming to me who have no clue what a trained dog is capable of. I am not arguing that point.

And as for your snotty remark about the frozen bird, I have a specific use in mind for that particular bird. My live birds, ducks AND pigeons AND chukars have been propagating their little gonads off since March, and are still at it. I find it a bit unfortunate that one cannot make a light-hearted comment without drawing snark - and from a moderator no less.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:54 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:Glad to see you qualify the above statements with words like "Most people", and "can be far more complex", leaves room for the outliers who train above the norm. I already agreed that the average hunter/wannabe trainer is not likely to be training to a higher level. Hell, I get guys coming to me who have no clue what a trained dog is capable of. I am not arguing that point.

And as for your snotty remark about the frozen bird, I have a specific use in mind for that particular bird. My live birds, ducks AND pigeons AND chukars have been propagating their little gonads off since March, and are still at it. I find it a bit unfortunate that one cannot make a light-hearted comment without drawing snark - and from a moderator no less.


You still have to work on that quote thing. :yes:

As far as snarky, think most all are guilty of snarky. Including you, eh?

My comment on birds was just that, MOST hunters don't have access or put effort into access, sans the one or two birds they save out from a season. That's fine I guess but means you ain't planning on training much with birds. Buying birds is the legal thing in most states to do, unless you want the mess of growing them.

As far as moderator not sure your point. I mostly move spam for the likes of all members and keep out dog ad's. If it means I can't have an opinion then I wouldn't do it - for free. :lol3:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:19 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:Glad to see you qualify the above statements with words like "Most people", and "can be far more complex", leaves room for the outliers who train above the norm. I already agreed that the average hunter/wannabe trainer is not likely to be training to a higher level. Hell, I get guys coming to me who have no clue what a trained dog is capable of. I am not arguing that point.

And as for your snotty remark about the frozen bird, I have a specific use in mind for that particular bird. My live birds, ducks AND pigeons AND chukars have been propagating their little gonads off since March, and are still at it. I find it a bit unfortunate that one cannot make a light-hearted comment without drawing snark - and from a moderator no less.


You still have to work on that quote thing. :yes:

As far as snarky, think most all are guilty of snarky. Including you, eh?

My comment on birds was just that, MOST hunters don't have access or put effort into access, sans the one or two birds they save out from a season. That's fine I guess but means you ain't planning on training much with birds. Buying birds is the legal thing in most states to do, unless you want the mess of growing them.

As far as moderator not sure your point. I mostly move spam for the likes of all members and keep out dog ad's. If it means I can't have an opinion then I wouldn't do it - for free. :lol3:


Quotes are the least of my problems, I'm lucky I can find the damn keyboard these days. Please point out the posts where I snarked, especially if, like your comment, it was undeserved. You can have all the opinions you want, but that comment did not qualify as an opinion, and was unworthy of you. I guess I assumed mods were above such stuff.

And for the record, I have "hunter" clients with huge chest freezers full dead birds - as do I. :yes:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:29 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....And for the record, I have "hunter" clients with huge chest freezers full dead birds - as do I. :yes:
Do their dogs also have correct heads, ear set, tail set, and movement, but haven't been trained well enough to demonstrate working performance beyond a JH or WC level?

(Yes, that was kinda snarky. You could say that I snarked a bit.)
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:31 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:Glad to see you qualify the above statements with words like "Most people", and "can be far more complex", leaves room for the outliers who train above the norm. I already agreed that the average hunter/wannabe trainer is not likely to be training to a higher level. Hell, I get guys coming to me who have no clue what a trained dog is capable of. I am not arguing that point.

And as for your snotty remark about the frozen bird, I have a specific use in mind for that particular bird. My live birds, ducks AND pigeons AND chukars have been propagating their little gonads off since March, and are still at it. I find it a bit unfortunate that one cannot make a light-hearted comment without drawing snark - and from a moderator no less.


You still have to work on that quote thing. :yes:

As far as snarky, think most all are guilty of snarky. Including you, eh?

My comment on birds was just that, MOST hunters don't have access or put effort into access, sans the one or two birds they save out from a season. That's fine I guess but means you ain't planning on training much with birds. Buying birds is the legal thing in most states to do, unless you want the mess of growing them.

As far as moderator not sure your point. I mostly move spam for the likes of all members and keep out dog ad's. If it means I can't have an opinion then I wouldn't do it - for free. :lol3:


Quotes are the least of my problems, I'm lucky I can find the damn keyboard these days. Please point out the posts where I snarked, especially if, like your comment, it was undeserved. You can have all the opinions you want, but that comment did not qualify as an opinion, and was unworthy of you. I guess I assumed mods were above such stuff.

And for the record, I have "hunter" clients with huge chest freezers full dead birds - as do I. :yes:


Hell, I don't even know what you're talking about relative to 'snarky' and birds. I made what I believe is a pretty true statement. Soon here we'll see posts about shooting doves out of season and sparrows to 'train' their dog for hunting season.

Above what? Responding to inaccurate statements? Unfounded claims of grandeur? Good for your hunter clients...I said most. Now the people who want to pay you for help are about what? 005% of the hunter population?
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