thoughts on pedigree

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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:07 pm

From HNTFSH:
[/quote]Hell, I don't even know what you're talking about relative to 'snarky' and birds. I made what I believe is a pretty true statement. Soon here we'll see posts about shooting doves out of season and sparrows to 'train' their dog for hunting season.
Above what? Responding to inaccurate statements? Unfounded claims of grandeur? Good for your hunter clients...I said most. Now the people who want to pay you for help are about what? 005% of the hunter population?[/quote]

Then allow me to refresh your memory: In the post with your photos, you made the comment, "Nice weather here today though for picking up ducks! Oh yea, propagated banded ones, not the single frozen one you may have thought to save out for training 6 months ago". This was a direct reference to my post mentioning a frozen bird, and had nothing to do with other hunters failure to access training birds, which hadn't even been brought up at that point.

Inaccurate statements?? I am agreeing with you re: most hunters for Gods sake, what on earth are you talking about??
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:47 am

LiquidA45, you getting anything useful out of this?

As noted above, I don't think you're slighting your dog by not putting a HRCH on it, the dog couldn't care less about titles or, as Buck put it "ribbons". Only that you give it a good life, which is, of course, possible without hunt testing. I hunt test my youngsters as incentive to get certain basics down in relatively short order, but find test days and even group training days boring as all get out if I can't stay active pitching birds, helping marshal or something, anything, to keep from having to watch yet another dog run the same setup. And even when busy I resent not being free to do something else. Just "not my thing". But my dogs still get to enjoy a tremendous amount of field time with me, which includes training and conditioning focused on what will actually be required of them when hunting. Far, far more than they would with most serious amateurs or on a pro's truck.

Which brings us to the human perspective on your quandary. It's not clear to me who Derek is, whether he's who you "inherited" the dog from or a pro who put the Started title on it. If Derek was the dog's owner and passed or became disabled and gave up the dog so it would have a more active life, then you do him no disservice by not HRCHing the dog unless you made that commitment to him or you feel that's a goal that would honor his memory or wishes. If Derek is a decent pro, and you are thinking about having him continue Pup's training through HRCH, he'll have plenty of dogs to work, and whether yours is one of them should be no skin off his nose.

Please know I'm not suggesting that you should not title the dog or that it or the two of you would not benefit from the experience, only that it's hard for me to see not putting a HRCH on a dog as a "disservice" unless there's some sort of human commitment you haven't expressed. I once stopped testing a young dog just one pass short of his HRCH, because I wasn't enjoying it and we were already where I wanted to be with that part of his development, and I'm pretty darn sure he was same dog without that title as he would have been with it. But I've also been in the position of having made a HRCH title commitment to a breeder and would have felt like a horse's ass if I didn't follow through had cancer not taken that HR youngster before his second test season. Miss him the same without that HRCH as I would have with it.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:06 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:Then allow me to refresh your memory: In the post with your photos, you made the comment, "Nice weather here today though for picking up ducks! Oh yea, propagated banded ones, not the single frozen one you may have thought to save out for training 6 months ago". This was a direct reference to my post mentioning a frozen bird, and had nothing to do with other hunters failure to access training birds, which hadn't even been brought up at that point.


You are wrong, hence why I made the comment about not understanding what you are talking about. Had nothing to do about a frozen bird comments from you. Newsflash: we freeze/thaw training ducks just like any other training circle.

The reason I mentioned it is because again; if you aren't training for anything BUT hunting you are likely not going to HAVE a cache of ducks to use for your dog, in July.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:10 am

Rick Hall wrote:LiquidA45, you getting anything useful out of this?

As noted above, I don't think you're slighting your dog by not putting a HRCH on it, the dog couldn't care less about titles or, as Buck put it "ribbons". Only that you give it a good life, which is, of course, possible without hunt testing. I hunt test my youngsters as incentive to get certain basics down in relatively short order, but find test days and even group training days boring as all get out if I can't stay active pitching birds, helping marshal or something, anything, to keep from having to watch yet another dog run the same setup. And even when busy I resent not being free to do something else. Just "not my thing". But my dogs still get to enjoy a tremendous amount of field time with me, which includes training and conditioning focused on what will actually be required of them when hunting. Far, far more than they would with most serious amateurs or on a pro's truck.

Which brings us to the human perspective on your quandary. It's not clear to me who Derek is, whether he's who you "inherited" the dog from or a pro who put the Started title on it. If Derek was the dog's owner and passed or became disabled and gave up the dog so it would have a more active life, then you do him no disservice by not HRCHing the dog unless you made that commitment to him or you feel that's a goal that would honor his memory or wishes. If Derek is a decent pro, and you are thinking about having him continue Pup's training through HRCH, he'll have plenty of dogs to work, and whether yours is one of them should be no skin off his nose.

Please know I'm not suggesting that you should not title the dog or that it or the two of you would not benefit from the experience, only that it's hard for me to see not putting a HRCH on a dog as a "disservice" unless there's some sort of human commitment you haven't expressed. I once stopped testing a young dog just one pass short of his HRCH, because I wasn't enjoying it and we were already where I wanted to be with that part of his development, and I'm pretty darn sure he was same dog without that title as he would have been with it. But I've also been in the position of having made a HRCH title commitment to a breeder and would have felt like a horse's ass if I didn't follow through had cancer not taken that HR youngster before his second test season. Miss him the same without that HRCH as I would have with it.


I think the man wanted to show us a nice pedigree and reference the possibility of running HRC. Your fatherly post and recollections of decades gone by was charming though, as usual.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby labman63 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:17 am

Looks good to me. Nuf said
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:43 am

HNTFSH wrote:Your fatherly post and recollections of decades gone by was charming though, as usual.


Up your nose with a rubber hose.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:54 am

Rick Hall wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:Your fatherly post and recollections of decades gone by was charming though, as usual.


Up your nose with a rubber hose.


Back at ya.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:24 am

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:Then allow me to refresh your memory: In the post with your photos, you made the comment, "Nice weather here today though for picking up ducks! Oh yea, propagated banded ones, not the single frozen one you may have thought to save out for training 6 months ago". This was a direct reference to my post mentioning a frozen bird, and had nothing to do with other hunters failure to access training birds, which hadn't even been brought up at that point.


You are wrong, hence why I made the comment about not understanding what you are talking about. Had nothing to do about a frozen bird comments from you. Newsflash: we freeze/thaw training ducks just like any other training circle.

The reason I mentioned it is because again; if you aren't training for anything BUT hunting you are likely not going to HAVE a cache of ducks to use for your dog, in July.


So I am to believe that your comment on a topic which had no prior reference except in my post was simply a coincidence? A case of unfortunate timing? You expressed yourself poorly? Pffffftttt.

To paraphrase Rick, in your ear with a can of beer.
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:36 am

Rick Hall wrote:LiquidA45, you getting anything useful out of this?

As noted above, I don't think you're slighting your dog by not putting a HRCH on it, the dog couldn't care less about titles or, as Buck put it "ribbons". Only that you give it a good life, which is, of course, possible without hunt testing. I hunt test my youngsters as incentive to get certain basics down in relatively short order, but find test days and even group training days boring as all get out if I can't stay active pitching birds, helping marshal or something, anything, to keep from having to watch yet another dog run the same setup. And even when busy I resent not being free to do something else. Just "not my thing". But my dogs still get to enjoy a tremendous amount of field time with me, which includes training and conditioning focused on what will actually be required of them when hunting. Far, far more than they would with most serious amateurs or on a pro's truck.

Which brings us to the human perspective on your quandary. It's not clear to me who Derek is, whether he's who you "inherited" the dog from or a pro who put the Started title on it. If Derek was the dog's owner and passed or became disabled and gave up the dog so it would have a more active life, then you do him no disservice by not HRCHing the dog unless you made that commitment to him or you feel that's a goal that would honor his memory or wishes. If Derek is a decent pro, and you are thinking about having him continue Pup's training through HRCH, he'll have plenty of dogs to work, and whether yours is one of them should be no skin off his nose.

Please know I'm not suggesting that you should not title the dog or that it or the two of you would not benefit from the experience, only that it's hard for me to see not putting a HRCH on a dog as a "disservice" unless there's some sort of human commitment you haven't expressed. I once stopped testing a young dog just one pass short of his HRCH, because I wasn't enjoying it and we were already where I wanted to be with that part of his development, and I'm pretty darn sure he was same dog without that title as he would have been with it. But I've also been in the position of having made a HRCH title commitment to a breeder and would have felt like a horse's ass if I didn't follow through had cancer not taken that HR youngster before his second test season. Miss him the same without that HRCH as I would have with it.


Thank you Rick. My group had the weekend off for the holiday, so I trained with a friend. We threw a bunch of new stuff at the youngsters, accomplished a lot, and had a ball watching the dogs figure stuff out. I don't need to title a dog any more (although I really enjoyed doing so) to know what I've got, and a title won't give me a better dog in the blind.
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:44 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:Then allow me to refresh your memory: In the post with your photos, you made the comment, "Nice weather here today though for picking up ducks! Oh yea, propagated banded ones, not the single frozen one you may have thought to save out for training 6 months ago". This was a direct reference to my post mentioning a frozen bird, and had nothing to do with other hunters failure to access training birds, which hadn't even been brought up at that point.


You are wrong, hence why I made the comment about not understanding what you are talking about. Had nothing to do about a frozen bird comments from you. Newsflash: we freeze/thaw training ducks just like any other training circle.

The reason I mentioned it is because again; if you aren't training for anything BUT hunting you are likely not going to HAVE a cache of ducks to use for your dog, in July.


So I am to believe that your comment on a topic which had no prior reference except in my post was simply a coincidence? A case of unfortunate timing? You expressed yourself poorly? Pffffftttt.

To paraphrase Rick, in your ear with a can of beer.


:lol3: Yep. I don't lie. Nor do I call folks names, tell them to piss off, or shove things in the ears. Folks that do that tend to have run out of valid points.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:04 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
Thank you Rick. My group had the weekend off for the holiday, so I trained with a friend. We threw a bunch of new stuff at the youngsters, accomplished a lot, and had a ball watching the dogs figure stuff out. I don't need to title a dog any more (although I really enjoyed doing so) to know what I've got, and a title won't give me a better dog in the blind.


As has been said, the skills in a journey toward a title probably would. Some miss that point so easily and run to ribbons and title nonsense to defend not doing so. I have trained a lot harder, and further, then I've ever run or titled. Some of that pure hunting need/want and some pure test need/want. I train to both, as hard and complete as I can. It's fun. Chances are if you never, ever, plan to test you will not train with or learn from, those that do.

Your background appears to be the Show ring mostly and perhaps some agility. A few low/mid level NAHRA events I'd guess some time ago. Good for you. Now you've said you train to master level despite not running them. Have you taken the line at a Master or trained your 'clients' to run one? How many of your pups or 'clients' in training have run an AKC senior?

I'm not trying to validate or dismiss your credibility but you have posted some things I found counter-intuitive to your opinions.

Again - I am the hunter. Waterfowl and upland, upland after wild birds. Preserves for training. Ole Rick thinks I'm fibbing but heck, he hasn't hunted a public land pheasant in Ohio for 30 years so bold accusation given that.

Love to see the pedigree on that Derby-able Chessie. I don't want a Chessie but I enjoy interpreting Chessies pedigrees against their accomplishments. One of the few dogs still 'possible' for a DC.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby bakerloo » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:15 pm

Why Title a Dog?

Not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in record and in memory for as long as anything in this world can remain. Few humans will do as well or better in that regard.

And though the dog itself doesn't know or care that its achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans, where such things count.

A title says your dog was intelligent and adaptable, and good-natured. It says that your dog loved you enough to do the things that please you, however crazy they may have sometimes seemed.

And a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with it because it was a good dog, that you believed in it enough to give it yet another chance when it failed, and that, in the end, your faith was justified.

A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship enjoyed by so few; that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved, and loved greatly in return.

And when that dear short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend, volumes of pride in one small set of initials after the name.

A title earned is nothing less than love and respect, given and received, and permanently recorded.

-Sandra Mowery
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:25 pm

That's a very nice sentement, but a test title could also mean you paid someone to have the skill and perseverance put one on a pretty sorry dog you hardly know.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:53 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:Your fatherly post and recollections of decades gone by was charming though, as usual.


Up your nose with a rubber hose.


Back at ya.


Figured you'd find that Vinnyism from decades gone by charming.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby banknote » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:03 pm

I may title my dog. But while the training we go through to meet that end would no doubt help us both be better team members in the field, when I ask myself whether the title is for the dog or if it's for me, I'm not going to pretend it's for the dog... except that it just might help him get laid.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby bakerloo » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:14 pm

banknote wrote:I may title my dog. But while the training we go through to meet that end would no doubt help us both be better team members in the field, when I ask myself whether the title is for the dog or if it's for me, I'm not going to pretend it's for the dog... except that it just might help him get laid.


I promised mine that if he gets his MH he will get a lot of sex.
I remind him every morning while we are driving to our spot. :beer:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:00 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:
Thank you Rick. My group had the weekend off for the holiday, so I trained with a friend. We threw a bunch of new stuff at the youngsters, accomplished a lot, and had a ball watching the dogs figure stuff out. I don't need to title a dog any more (although I really enjoyed doing so) to know what I've got, and a title won't give me a better dog in the blind.


As has been said, the skills in a journey toward a title probably would. Some miss that point so easily and run to ribbons and title nonsense to defend not doing so. I have trained a lot harder, and further, then I've ever run or titled. Some of that pure hunting need/want and some pure test need/want. I train to both, as hard and complete as I can. It's fun. Chances are if you never, ever, plan to test you will not train with or learn from, those that do.
[color=#008080]So you do not believe it is possible to achieve those skills without testing? It's really not that difficult to read a rule book for title requirements.
[/color]

Your background appears to be the Show ring mostly and perhaps some agility. A few low/mid level NAHRA events I'd guess some time ago. Good for you. Now you've said you train to master level despite not running them. Have you taken the line at a Master or trained your 'clients' to run one? How many of your pups or 'clients' in training have run an AKC senior?
[color=#008080]Taking a page from Doc's book are you? I don't get the antipathy toward the fact that I was able to finish my working dogs in the show ring. It is hardly my fault that lab owners are unable to do the same. And ya wanna know something, HNTFSH? I saw the same nasty attitude from some of my fellow competitors in my own breed; they resented the fact that my [titled ]working dogs[/b] could and did beat their (strictly) show dogs. No where was that more apparent that at my last show, where I pulled my finished bitch out of retirement to attend a supported entry of 60+ dogs, including all the big winners on the circuit. Her BOB win was the subject of some "interesting" comments and a forum discussion. That wasn't the first time something like that happened when I was showing. You think it's easy to finish a dog with that kind of crap going on? Try it some time, I double-dog dare ya.
Your search skills could use some work, and I never did agility. And my clients are doing just fine, thanks for asking.
[/color]

[color=#008080]Not trying to dismiss my credibility? Sure you are. Examples of posts that are "counter-intuitive" to my opinions please?
[/color]

Again - I am the hunter. Waterfowl and upland, upland after wild birds. Preserves for training. Ole Rick thinks I'm fibbing but heck, he hasn't hunted a public land pheasant in Ohio for 30 years so bold accusation given that.
[color=#008080]As am I - for 38 years, many of them year-round if you want to include pigeon shoots.
[/color]
Love to see the pedigree on that Derby-able Chessie. I don't want a Chessie but I enjoy interpreting Chessies pedigrees against their accomplishments. One of the few dogs still 'possible' for a DC.

Spendthrift Into The Myst - CH Port Side's Great Xpectations MH WDQ, ** x CH Ches-Shores Backwater Sook JH. Be my guest.
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:09 pm

bakerloo wrote:Why Title a Dog?

Not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in record and in memory for as long as anything in this world can remain. Few humans will do as well or better in that regard.

And though the dog itself doesn't know or care that its achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans, where such things count.

A title says your dog was intelligent and adaptable, and good-natured. It says that your dog loved you enough to do the things that please you, however crazy they may have sometimes seemed.

And a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with it because it was a good dog, that you believed in it enough to give it yet another chance when it failed, and that, in the end, your faith was justified.

A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship enjoyed by so few; that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved, and loved greatly in return.

And when that dear short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend, volumes of pride in one small set of initials after the name.

A title earned is nothing less than love and respect, given and received, and permanently recorded.

-Sandra Mowery


Lovely sentiments, but way too much anthropomorphism expressed here for me. I personally don't need a title on my dog to achieve any of these things. :smile:
The lab and golden think: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; they must be gods."
The Chesapeake thinks: "My humans give me food, shelter and love; I must be a God."
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:59 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:
Thank you Rick. My group had the weekend off for the holiday, so I trained with a friend. We threw a bunch of new stuff at the youngsters, accomplished a lot, and had a ball watching the dogs figure stuff out. I don't need to title a dog any more (although I really enjoyed doing so) to know what I've got, and a title won't give me a better dog in the blind.


As has been said, the skills in a journey toward a title probably would. Some miss that point so easily and run to ribbons and title nonsense to defend not doing so. I have trained a lot harder, and further, then I've ever run or titled. Some of that pure hunting need/want and some pure test need/want. I train to both, as hard and complete as I can. It's fun. Chances are if you never, ever, plan to test you will not train with or learn from, those that do.
[color=#008080]So you do not believe it is possible to achieve those skills without testing? It's really not that difficult to read a rule book for title requirements.
[/color]

Your background appears to be the Show ring mostly and perhaps some agility. A few low/mid level NAHRA events I'd guess some time ago. Good for you. Now you've said you train to master level despite not running them. Have you taken the line at a Master or trained your 'clients' to run one? How many of your pups or 'clients' in training have run an AKC senior?
[color=#008080]Taking a page from Doc's book are you? I don't get the antipathy toward the fact that I was able to finish my working dogs in the show ring. It is hardly my fault that lab owners are unable to do the same. And ya wanna know something, HNTFSH? I saw the same nasty attitude from some of my fellow competitors in my own breed; they resented the fact that my [titled ]working dogs[/b] could and did beat their (strictly) show dogs. No where was that more apparent that at my last show, where I pulled my finished bitch out of retirement to attend a supported entry of 60+ dogs, including all the big winners on the circuit. Her BOB win was the subject of some "interesting" comments and a forum discussion. That wasn't the first time something like that happened when I was showing. You think it's easy to finish a dog with that kind of crap going on? Try it some time, I double-dog dare ya.
Your search skills could use some work, and I never did agility. And my clients are doing just fine, thanks for asking.
[/color]

[color=#008080]Not trying to dismiss my credibility? Sure you are. Examples of posts that are "counter-intuitive" to my opinions please?
[/color]

Again - I am the hunter. Waterfowl and upland, upland after wild birds. Preserves for training. Ole Rick thinks I'm fibbing but heck, he hasn't hunted a public land pheasant in Ohio for 30 years so bold accusation given that.
[color=#008080]As am I - for 38 years, many of them year-round if you want to include pigeon shoots.
[/color]
Love to see the pedigree on that Derby-able Chessie. I don't want a Chessie but I enjoy interpreting Chessies pedigrees against their accomplishments. One of the few dogs still 'possible' for a DC.

Spendthrift Into The Myst - CH Port Side's Great Xpectations MH WDQ, ** x CH Ches-Shores Backwater Sook JH. Be my guest.


So you do not believe it is possible to achieve those skills without testing? It's really not that difficult to read a rule book for title requirements.

:lol3: :lol3: Reading a rule book?? Please. Seriously, that is your reply? Oh my. Heck, I should be a world class golfer, I subscribe to Golf Digest.

Taking a page from Doc's book are you? I don't get the antipathy toward the fact that I was able to finish my working dogs in the show ring. It is hardly my fault that lab owners are unable to do the same. And ya wanna know something, HNTFSH? I saw the same nasty attitude from some of my fellow competitors in my own breed; they resented the fact that my [titled ]working dogs[/b] could and did beat their (strictly) show dogs. No where was that more apparent that at my last show, where I pulled my finished bitch out of retirement to attend a supported entry of 60+ dogs, including all the big winners on the circuit. Her BOB win was the subject of some "interesting" comments and a forum discussion. That wasn't the first time something like that happened when I was showing. You think it's easy to finish a dog with that kind of crap going on? Try it some time, I double-dog dare ya.
Your search skills could use some work, and I never did agility. And my clients are doing just fine, thanks for asking.


Thought we were talking about working/hunting dogs. I don't mind most show folks. Just the ones that think show dogs make great field dogs. It's normally not the case. Occasionally a good trainer can put a working title on a show line but think most would tell you the dog doesn't perform like a trial bred dog, or a working dog breeding. Most go for that JH Copdoc talked about and sell them off as 'great hunting dogs' to people who would know good working dog flesh if it bit 'em. Like I said on the website YOU provided - lotsa show, not much Hunting retriever,. Yet you constantly train at the Master level? Just looking for some data around that so as to better appreciate what you type.

not trying to dismiss my credibility? Sure you are. Examples of posts that are "counter-intuitive" to my opinions please?

Just trying to validate it. On one hand you say you train to master levels yet on the other hand you refer to a rule book to justify it.

as am I - for 38 years, many of them year-round if you want to include pigeon shoots.

Pigeon shoots? Funny you even mention it. Now this might be my fault cause upland wild birds in my mind doesn't count pigeons. Not many quail counties open in Ohio nor populations worth pursuing. Grouse, well...I've got better things to do. Pheasant, that's the love. Your previous posts spoke to preserves which I guess many consider 'hunting'. I don't.

Spendthrift Into The Myst - CH Port Side's Great Xpectations MH WDQ, ** x CH Ches-Shores Backwater Sook JH. Be my guest.

What's this dog in reference to? Did my best to look it up but found nothing?
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Rick Hall » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:20 pm

HNTFSH wrote:Spendthrift Into The Myst - CH Port Side's Great Xpectations MH WDQ, ** x CH Ches-Shores Backwater Sook JH. Be my guest.

What's this dog in reference to? Did my best to look it up but found nothing?


Some guy calling himself "HNTFSH" asked about it:

HNTFSH wrote:Love to see the pedigree on that Derby-able Chessie. I don't want a Chessie but I enjoy interpreting Chessies pedigrees against their accomplishments. One of the few dogs still 'possible' for a DC.


Pup hasn't been entered in the database yet, but parents have: http://www.chessieinfo.net/PedPoint/pp_pedigree.php?id=Port%20Side%27s%20Great%20Xpectations&gens=3&db=pedigree and http://www.chessieinfo.net/PedPoint/pp_pedigree.php?id=Ches-Shores%20Back%20Water%20Sook&gens=3&db=pedigree
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:32 pm

That's great Rick, I saw all that. Heck - Mr. Reed, the owner of Lefty ran the dog in all his AKC stakes. The breeding wasn't from Spendthrift.

Hence the question around understanding the reference.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:34 pm

AH!! The Derby Dog!! This is what happens when providing non-standard internet professional quotes. :lol3: Seemed many arguments ago I asked for that!
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:55 pm

Read for comprehension: I said read the rule book for title requirements. How do you think folks knew what to train for when NAHRA first started, or when AKC got into the performance business? How does any newb know where to start to prepare for in any discipline?

Again, RFC; it seems you missed quite a bit of info on "that website I provided". And please point out where I said I "constantly train at a master level". Have done plenty of "hunting retriever" stuff, yes including "wild" pigeon shoots, which is some of the most fun ever. No limits, my hunting partner and I are still trying to beat our record of 95 killed in three+ hours. When was the last time your dog got that kind of "hunting retriever" work, hmmm?

And if you think I am even going to begin to discuss our wild pheasant spot, think again. That is a deep dark secret.

You said you would love to see my "Derby-able" dog's pedigree, I gave you the sire and dam; never said or pretended she was my breeding, you ASS-U-MEd it - as you assume so many other things of which you have no personal knowledge. :wink:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:06 am

I've had enough, am sure the board has. Didn't ask about your hunting spots, didn't say you bred the puppy, don't believe you can train at a master level by reading the rules, and don't consider shooting feral pigeons upland hunting.

What I think all can agree on who have worked dogs to a test state or general 'good' hunting state is this. Pet owners (and they abound in the 1st hunting dog realm) can be mesmerized by basic obedience alone. Many will think you're a genius because you show a dog that can sit in the same spot as you walk 100 yards away and then back again.

There are many 'Trainers' that capitalize on this as a means to take 'client' dogs as 'hunting training'. It's just not hard to impress money out of someones wallet by showing a dog that picks up a bird and brings it back. Two guys in particular I know train 90% of the 'client' dogs to Junior, have dog trucks and websites. Unfortunately they are HORRIBLE dog trainers and screw the pooch up so much it will NEVER make senior or better.

And I've heard them both say...."Junior's all you need for a good hunting dog". "You didn't buy this dog to Field Trial, right?"

It's shame IMO. Same with promoting that dogs not really bred to work squeak by a few junior tests and sold as 'Hunting Stock'. Great hunters! Hunting 'bloodlines'. Nobody told the poor buyer that Junior run included running around the shoreline getting paws wet and the old judge passed the dog anyway.

OP has a nice pedigree on that pup. Probably lots that dog could do in the field of any venue. Personally If I bought a Corvette, I'd smoke the tires on occasion.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:23 am

HNTFSH wrote:I've had enough, am sure the board has. Didn't ask about your hunting spots, didn't say you bred the puppy, don't believe you can train at a master level by reading the rules, and don't consider shooting feral pigeons upland hunting.

What I think all can agree on who have worked dogs to a test state or general 'good' hunting state is this. Pet owners (and they abound in the 1st hunting dog realm) can be mesmerized by basic obedience alone. Many will think you're a genius because you show a dog that can sit in the same spot as you walk 100 yards away and then back again.

There are many 'Trainers' that capitalize on this as a means to take 'client' dogs as 'hunting training'. It's just not hard to impress money out of someones wallet by showing a dog that picks up a bird and brings it back. Two guys in particular I know train 90% of the 'client' dogs to Junior, have dog trucks and websites. Unfortunately they are HORRIBLE dog trainers and screw the pooch up so much it will NEVER make senior or better.

And I've heard them both say...."Junior's all you need for a good hunting dog". "You didn't buy this dog to Field Trial, right?"

It's shame IMO. Same with promoting that dogs not really bred to work squeak by a few junior tests and sold as 'Hunting Stock'. Great hunters! Hunting 'bloodlines'. Nobody told the poor buyer that Junior run included running around the shoreline getting paws wet and the old judge passed the dog anyway.

OP has a nice pedigree on that pup. Probably lots that dog could do in the field of any venue. Personally If I bought a Corvette, I'd smoke the tires on occasion.


And I am sure "the board" can speak for itself. With 900 views on this thread, I am also sure the sponsors are delighted.

I agree with you 100% on the rest of your post (well, except for the first paragraph), see it all the time. It is very easy to impress the ignorant; I once demo'd a handling pattern for a large crowd, and the comments were all amazement that my dog held the sit while I put out the pattern, which was hardly the point of the demo. The average dog owner has absolutely no concept of what dogs are capable of learning, and it is real easy for unethical "trainers" to use that to their financial advantage.

As for your comment on Junior, I've seen worse, which is one reason I don't recommend my clients running AKC; the other is I have a huge philosophical problem with the whole program, which I explained in another thread.
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