thoughts on pedigree

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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:30 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:And I am sure "the board" can speak for itself. With 900 views on this thread, I am also sure the sponsors are delighted.


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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Labs » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:55 am

The point that I think is missing in all this, from what I can gather, is that the folks promoting not running a dog in hunt tests, were once people that ran hunt tests. Reading rules and training dogs to the Master level or whatever, doesn't have any meaning to the guy that has never done it...walking to the line, and having someone else judge the training that you have done against the standard, can not be quantified from merely reading the rulebook. Dawn, that approach may work for you, because you have been there, but for the new person, they can not simply read a rulebook and turn out a Master Hunter...or an HRCH or an MHR.

I think the Hunt test program is a way to validate a person's training. If a hunting dog isn't quite steady in the blind does the average hunter care?...probably not. Get your dog a AKC Senior title or a NAHRA WR Title or and HRC HR title, and I would imagine that you would have a dog in the marsh that is 85-90% better than every other dog in the marsh on that day. I am also a hunter first, and tester second...but I can say this, testing made me a better handler...through experience...., and in turn, made the "team" better at the ultimate goal, which is game conservation.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:54 am

Labs wrote:The point that I think is missing in all this, from what I can gather, is that the folks promoting not running a dog in hunt tests, were once people that ran hunt tests. Reading rules and training dogs to the Master level or whatever, doesn't have any meaning to the guy that has never done it...walking to the line, and having someone else judge the training that you have done against the standard, can not be quantified from merely reading the rulebook. Dawn, that approach may work for you, because you have been there, but for the new person, they can not simply read a rulebook and turn out a Master Hunter...or an HRCH or an MHR.

I think the Hunt test program is a way to validate a person's training. If a hunting dog isn't quite steady in the blind does the average hunter care?...probably not. Get your dog a AKC Senior title or a NAHRA WR Title or and HRC HR title, and I would imagine that you would have a dog in the marsh that is 85-90% better than every other dog in the marsh on that day. I am also a hunter first, and tester second...but I can say this, testing made me a better handler...through experience...., and in turn, made the "team" better at the ultimate goal, which is game conservation.


I don't think anyone was promoting not running hunt tests; hell, I would still be doing it if I could, I loved it. I was merely making the point that it is no disservice to anyone to not do so, and not testing formally does not mean you cannot train to test standards. But it is my opinion that hunt testing is just one way to validate your training, whatever that means. The results of a hunt test have the same basis as any other form of competition, i.e., you are getting one/two persons opinions on that day, according to his/their interpretation of the standard.I guess if you have never shown under a judge who tweaks that interpretation to suit his own biases, you would not know what I am talking about, but trust me, it happens, as described in an earlier post. If your dog happens to fail a test, does that mean he is a worthless piece of crap and you are a horrible trainer? Of course not, it just means that the judges' opinion was that he did not meet the standard for a pass on that day.

The rule book comment got derailed; of course a newbie cannot turn out a competitive dog just by reading same, but he can get an idea of the training involved by understanding the standards against which his dog will be judged, and then seek whatever help is necessary for him to train to that standard. The first thing I do with a new client seeking to compete in any discipline is have them get a copy of the rule book.

The fact that I am no longer able to test does not mean my dogs are trained to a lesser standard, because they are not; it's just means that now my training is "validated" in hunting venues. Thankfully, I have done this long enough to judge whether or not my dogs "meet the standard", and I don't feel the need to seek an outside opinion re: that.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:03 am

I believe Labs is an AKC or maybe HRC judge or both so interpretation is on him.

Yes, I have seen hard judges and easy ones. Some flock to one OR the other depending on their view of what a Pass means.

The rules comment wasn't really derailed. I was basing the question or response as to your comment about training at Master levels, for hunting dog work. I don't believe you've ever run an AKC Master specifically (you don't like AKC hunt tests I guess) so wondered by what premise you could train to a level you've never run? You answered Rule Book. I could be wrong but that's what it sounded like.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Labs » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:41 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
The fact that I am no longer able to test does not mean my dogs are trained to a lesser standard, because they are not; it's just means that now my training is "validated" in hunting venues. Thankfully, I have done this long enough to judge whether or not my dogs "meet the standard", and I don't feel the need to seek an outside opinion re: that.


This was my point. Someone that has never walked to the line, to be judged by others, really has a limited perception of what the standard is. When we say "sit means sit", we mean, sit your ass down until I tell you to move....the average hunter intreprets that as, oh, the dog sat when I told it to sit....there is a difference. I know you know what it means, but only experience of failure, or perhaps a shot dog can really convey what that means....that's all I was trying to say...and don't get me started on the screaming for fido I hear in the marsh every fall.... :wink:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:20 am

Labs wrote:The point that I think is missing in all this, from what I can gather, is that the folks promoting not running a dog in hunt tests, were once people that ran hunt tests. Reading rules and training dogs to the Master level or whatever, doesn't have any meaning to the guy that has never done it...walking to the line, and having someone else judge the training that you have done against the standard, can not be quantified from merely reading the rulebook. Dawn, that approach may work for you, because you have been there, but for the new person, they can not simply read a rulebook and turn out a Master Hunter...or an HRCH or an MHR.

I think the Hunt test program is a way to validate a person's training. If a hunting dog isn't quite steady in the blind does the average hunter care?...probably not. Get your dog a AKC Senior title or a NAHRA WR Title or and HRC HR title, and I would imagine that you would have a dog in the marsh that is 85-90% better than every other dog in the marsh on that day. I am also a hunter first, and tester second...but I can say this, testing made me a better handler...through experience...., and in turn, made the "team" better at the ultimate goal, which is game conservation.


I never said they could, understanding the requirements for a title is a starting point. Any newb who reads the requirements is going to have questions, and finding the answers to those questions will start him on the road to learning how to train and handle. I also never said testing was not a way to validate training; my point was, once again, it is not the only way. Some folks have reasons for not hunt testing that have nothing to do with lack of knowledge or competence.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:38 am

Labs wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:
The fact that I am no longer able to test does not mean my dogs are trained to a lesser standard, because they are not; it's just means that now my training is "validated" in hunting venues. Thankfully, I have done this long enough to judge whether or not my dogs "meet the standard", and I don't feel the need to seek an outside opinion re: that.


This was my point. Someone that has never walked to the line, to be judged by others, really has a limited perception of what the standard is. When we say "sit means sit", we mean, sit your ass down until I tell you to move....the average hunter intreprets that as, oh, the dog sat when I told it to sit....there is a difference. I know you know what it means, but only experience of failure, or perhaps a shot dog can really convey what that means....that's all I was trying to say...and don't get me started on the screaming for fido I hear in the marsh every fall.... :wink:


As I said before, I am well aware of the fact that the average "hunter" is clueless. I have seen them in action in hunt tests, in the field, and in my business. I have a new guy coming for an evaluation this weekend who has a young dog, his first, that he "hunted a few times last year at 5-6 months and she did some really nice retrieves, but needs a tune-up". I can hardly wait to see his idea of a " really nice retrieve", and to hear his definition of a "tune-up". Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised, but past experience tells me the odds of that are slim to none, and slim is out of town.

And if you think screaming in the marsh is bad, try upland hunting on public land the day after the state does a release; gives new meaning to the words cluster-you-know-what. :eek: It's a blue-eyed wonder there are no accidental shootings (although there have been some near homicides!).
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:22 am

HNTFSH wrote:I believe Labs is an AKC or maybe HRC judge or both so interpretation is on him.

Yes, I have seen hard judges and easy ones. Some flock to one OR the other depending on their view of what a Pass means.

The rules comment wasn't really derailed. I was basing the question or response as to your comment about training at Master levels, for hunting dog work. I don't believe you've ever run an AKC Master specifically (you don't like AKC hunt tests I guess) so wondered by what premise you could train to a level you've never run? You answered Rule Book. I could be wrong but that's what it sounded like.


HNTFSH, this would go much faster if you would read/quote what I actually post so I could avoid repeating myself. :wink: I am not talking "easy vs. hard", I am talking about just what I said, a judge that sets up tests that are outside the specs, and does so because of his own personal biases. When I was conformation showing, there were judges who were clearly political (have a great example of that) who I would not show under a second time, why waste my time and money on a foregone conclusion that is based on something other than the quality of the dog at the end of the leash?? And, once again, I did not answer "rule book", the quote was "read the rule book for title requirements", which I expanded on after you scoffed at that comment. As for chasing "easy" judges, the fact that when I started hunt tests you had two strikes against you just for walking to the line with a Chessie never deterred me from doing it. It's a good thing it didn't, because the first dog I really campaigned turned a lot of negative opinions about the breed into clearly positive ones; I consider that to be my biggest accomplishment via hunt testing.

And you "guessed" wrong re: my comment about AKC hunt tests. The comment was not that I did not "like" them, it goes much deeper than that, based on the BS I personally observed when the program started. I described what I witnessed on another thread awhile back. I also described the judge's clinic I attended, which was a J.O.K.E., and the phone call I received from an irate HT board member after a letter I wrote to the sponsoring organization was posted in their newsletter. Trust me, you would not have wanted to run under some of the folks who attended that seminar, folks I knew personally.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:02 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:And you "guessed" wrong re: my comment about AKC hunt tests. The comment was not that I did not "like" them, it goes much deeper than that, based on the BS I personally observed when the program started. .


So you DO like them but your issue goes much deeper so you didn't run them. Got it!

Dawnsearlylight wrote:And, once again, I did not answer "rule book", the quote was "read the rule book for title requirements", which I expanded on after you scoffed at that comment.


Sounds pretty much the same to me.

Looks like a Mars and Venus situation to me we'll never resolve.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby bakerloo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:41 am

OP, run the tests. The time spent training and working with the dog to achieve the title will pay big dividends in the field. AND, tests are FUN for you and the dog. I have met a lot of great, like minded people at the tests.
Try HRC, AKC and NAHRA to see which venue you like.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:30 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:And you "guessed" wrong re: my comment about AKC hunt tests. The comment was not that I did not "like" them, it goes much deeper than that, based on the BS I personally observed when the program started. .


So you DO like them but your issue goes much deeper so you didn't run them. Got it!

Dawnsearlylight wrote:And, once again, I did not answer "rule book", the quote was "read the rule book for title requirements", which I expanded on after you scoffed at that comment.


Sounds pretty much the same to me.

Looks like a Mars and Venus situation to me we'll never resolve.


Didn't say that either. I don't give a rat's rump about resolution, I'd settle for folks to quit misquoting and applying their "guesses" to my posts.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby HNTFSH » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:11 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:And you "guessed" wrong re: my comment about AKC hunt tests. The comment was not that I did not "like" them, it goes much deeper than that, based on the BS I personally observed when the program started. .


So you DO like them but your issue goes much deeper so you didn't run them. Got it!

Dawnsearlylight wrote:And, once again, I did not answer "rule book", the quote was "read the rule book for title requirements", which I expanded on after you scoffed at that comment.


Sounds pretty much the same to me.

Looks like a Mars and Venus situation to me we'll never resolve.


Didn't say that either. I don't give a rat's rump about resolution, I'd settle for folks to quit misquoting and applying their "guesses" to my posts.


:no:
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:45 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:And you "guessed" wrong re: my comment about AKC hunt tests. The comment was not that I did not "like" them, it goes much deeper than that, based on the BS I personally observed when the program started. .


So you DO like them but your issue goes much deeper so you didn't run them. Got it!

Dawnsearlylight wrote:And, once again, I did not answer "rule book", the quote was "read the rule book for title requirements", which I expanded on after you scoffed at that comment.


Sounds pretty much the same to me.

Looks like a Mars and Venus situation to me we'll never resolve.


Didn't say that either. I don't give a rat's rump about resolution, I'd settle for folks to quit misquoting and applying their "guesses" to my posts.


:no:


Likewise, I'm sure.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby BlkonBlkRS3 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:53 am

LiquidA45 wrote:http://www.theretrieveracademy.com/pedigree/satchel-and-stormy.php

Just inherited a dog from this litter. Right now he just has a started title. Under my ownership this dog is going to be a hunting a lot. I'm on the fence regarding investing the time to further his HRC title. Just based off the limited research I've done and what I know about about Derek I feel like I might be doing a disservice to my dog and Derek by not getting his HRCH. Thoughts?



I just got a pup from Derek that has the same momma, when I got her it seemed as though he primarily wants to make sure they go to a good home whether that be a hunting or hunt test/field trial home. Not once did he mention anything about what I was going to do with the dog. Maybe that is because I already have one dog there with him and he knows this lil girl will be going too. Just speculating.

Anyway, how is the pup doing these days? Did you decide to continue with the training?
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby LiquidA45 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:10 am

BlkonBlkRS3 wrote:
LiquidA45 wrote:http://www.theretrieveracademy.com/pedigree/satchel-and-stormy.php

Just inherited a dog from this litter. Right now he just has a started title. Under my ownership this dog is going to be a hunting a lot. I'm on the fence regarding investing the time to further his HRC title. Just based off the limited research I've done and what I know about about Derek I feel like I might be doing a disservice to my dog and Derek by not getting his HRCH. Thoughts?



I just got a pup from Derek that has the same momma, when I got her it seemed as though he primarily wants to make sure they go to a good home whether that be a hunting or hunt test/field trial home. Not once did he mention anything about what I was going to do with the dog. Maybe that is because I already have one dog there with him and he knows this lil girl will be going too. Just speculating.

Anyway, how is the pup doing these days? Did you decide to continue with the training?


I haven't really paid any attention to this thread for obvious reasons. I have been working with him as much as I can since he is still at my parents until I move into my house. Main thing right now is just building up some chemistry with him and re-enforcing obedience. He is more than hunt-able at this point as we have also continued with some basic casting. Plan is just to hunt this year and pick up trials again in the spring. Right now it's more of training myself than it is the dog.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby BlkonBlkRS3 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:51 pm

I see that you are in Broken Arrow, have you thought about joining 3 Rivers HRC? There is a club meeting this Thursday in Claremore and then a club event at The Retriever Academy this weekend. Some really good folks in the club that can help you out, meet folks to train with, get ideas, etc.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby LiquidA45 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:06 pm

I'm going to. My dad is a member and actually was one of the first members when the club was formed. Some of the guys he trains with called him up on Saturday and he had to inform them he wouldn't be around much anymore but that I was going to get involved soon. Where at in Claremore is the meeting? I'd like to come out and introduce myself, I am sure some will recognize the dog and see my name and be a little confused :lol3: .
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby BlkonBlkRS3 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:31 pm

Ron's Hamburgers @ 6:45pm
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby LiquidA45 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:38 pm

Well I think I will attend. You going?
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby BlkonBlkRS3 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:07 am

Yes sir.
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Re: thoughts on pedigree

Postby LiquidA45 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:12 am

Good deal. If you see a tall goofy lookin fella that looks lost, that'll be me.
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