English labs

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English labs

Postby mmig » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:37 pm

Does anybody know where to find good quality English lab pup for duck hunting I can train myself? Preferably yellow or black females with strong features like a really blocky head/snout, and come from a strong hunting line.
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Re: English labs

Postby Rick Hall » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:55 pm

A father and son I know who kill a mess and a half of birds at the mouth of the Mississippi, which is no picnic for dogs, have had two from Tom Hamilton, http://www.brackenfen.com/, and are planing on a third.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:42 pm

Rick Hall wrote:A father and son I know who kill a mess and a half of birds at the mouth of the Mississippi, which is no picnic for dogs, have had two from Tom Hamilton, http://www.brackenfen.com/, and are planing on a third.
British Labs and English Labs are two very different things.

British Labs are bred to work.
English Labs are bred to be fat, clumsy, and disfigured to the point that they can't work.

It sounds like the OP wants the latter. A show dog.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:53 pm

Everything about the site including pics of the dogs are what I've come to liken as 'British' but he does use the term English quite generously.

mmig wrote:...strong features like a really blocky head/snout, and come from a strong hunting line.


That sounds like 'English', show style.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:41 am

HNTFSH wrote:Everything about the site including pics of the dogs are what I've come to liken as 'British' but he does use the term English quite generously.

mmig wrote:...strong features like a really blocky head/snout, and come from a strong hunting line.


That sounds like 'English', show style.


And good luck finding one of those "from a strong hunting line". :rolleyes:
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Re: English labs

Postby Irishwhistler » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:01 am

mmig wrote:Does anybody know where to find good quality English lab pup for duck hunting I can train myself? Preferably yellow or black females with strong features like a really blocky head/snout, and come from a strong hunting line.


mmig,
I am not going to jump to the conclusion that you are looking to hunt a "show" dog and that you are using the term "English" as a synonomous word for British. It is not my intention to argue semantics. I am going to base my post on the fact that you state you wNt a dog that will hunt. My suggestion is that you contact Haynes Floyd at DOUBLE TT BRITISH KENNELS in Sylvia, Kansas. Great line of British pups from stock with well documemted health certifications. The selective breeding program at Double TTBritish Kennels is producing bird driven pups that live to work (HUNT).

I am currently training a 10 month old Double TT pup, TTF CRAIGHORN KIFFIN TRAD, and he is going to be an incredible gundog. TRAD is bird driven, intelligent, focused, and has a no- nonsense work ethic when it comes to training and any chance to hunt and carry birds. Good looking and gets the work done! :thumbsup: PM me if interested.

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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:13 am

Irishwhistler wrote:mmig,
I am not going to jump to the conclusion that you are looking to hunt a "show" dog and that you are using the term "English" as a synonomous word for British. It is not my intention to argue semantics. I am going to base my post on the fact that you state you wNt a dog that will hunt.


A reasonable conclusion Irish :lol3: as is the notion he means British as we most know it. You can waste a lot of cycles, or even get badly 'fooled' if focusing on "English Lab" as your search point.

This is a young Brit dog from a few years ago. VERY birdy. He was a nice little dog and I'm sure done quite well. Had him shadow my last dog on some preserve birds and it didn't take long to 'click' in the little guys mind.

Purchased from a referral of a Test/Kennel trainer, one of her clients had the litter. An excellent way to find pups, typically rightly priced if one is patient and works the system.

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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:51 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:Everything about the site including pics of the dogs are what I've come to liken as 'British' but he does use the term English quite generously.

mmig wrote:...strong features like a really blocky head/snout, and come from a strong hunting line.


That sounds like 'English', show style.


And good luck finding one of those "from a strong hunting line". :rolleyes:
There's a whole pile of CH Labs with JH, SHR, and/or WC titles to their name. You can find them complete with an entire alphabet soup of meaningless titles, that do not require any sort of significant working ability to achieve.

Not a whole lot of HRCH or MH ones though.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:59 am

Irishwhistler wrote:....I am not going to jump to the conclusion that you are looking to hunt a "show" dog and that you are using the term "English" as a synonomous word for British.....
Do these dogs have "strong features like really blocky heads/snouts"?

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Re: English labs

Postby RCLCJR » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:55 pm

Theres a guy here in north Carolina that breeds some good looking dogs. Here is mine, just turned 16 months. He's an American though.
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Re: English labs

Postby Irishwhistler » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:24 pm

copterdoc wrote:
Irishwhistler wrote:....I am not going to jump to the conclusion that you are looking to hunt a "show" dog and that you are using the term "English" as a synonomous word for British.....
Do these dogs have "strong features like really blocky heads/snouts"?


Copterdoc.
What's ye point?

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Re: English labs

Postby RCLCJR » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:07 pm

To the OP,

If you get some negative feedback, for some reason, people on these forums really don't like it when you talk about "blocky" headed labs or big labs. They almost get offended, like it's not how the breed is supposed to look or something? In my opinion they are gorgeous. The Trick is finding one that will hunt. Then you have something special, a good looking dog that is actually a good dog all around too.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:03 pm

RCLCJR wrote:To the OP,

If you get some negative feedback, for some reason, people on these forums really don't like it when you talk about "blocky" headed labs or big labs. They almost get offended, like it's not how the breed is supposed to look or something? In my opinion they are gorgeous. The Trick is finding one that will hunt. Then you have something special, a good looking dog that is actually a good dog all around too.


:lol3: How the breed looks is often the argument presented by the show breeder. The working dog breeder is more what the dog does. On a hunting dog forum where most are often more concerned with performance over looks, you'll find that. As you would expect?

Now, what does a blocky head have to do with game finding ability, hunting, or train-ability? I ain't figured it out yet.

IMO - if I had a set of criteria for a hunting dog I'd look for: Pedigree and proven working lines, health clearance. Might also look at what traits I could determine about Sire and Dam. Would likely have a color preference but not stuck on it.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:51 pm

RCLCJR wrote:....Then you have something special, a good looking dog that is actually a good dog all around too.
No; then you have a retarded abomination, that waddles on stubby legs instead of running, and has such a short muzzle that it can't breathe, or wrap it's jaws around a goose.

The conformation ring does one thing, and one thing only. Destroys the genetics of good working breeds.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:24 pm

Irishwhistler wrote:.....Copterdoc.
What's ye point?

Irishwhistler
My point is that no, they don't have blocky heads and muzzles.
They don't, because they were bred to work, rather than conform to an appearance standard that exaggerates irrelevant features.

Form follows function, not the other way around.
When a breed is bred based primarily on function, beauty is the inevitable outcome.

The British dogs in the video are all beautiful, possessing naturally sound structure.
What is paraded around the show ring does not.



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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:44 pm

copterdoc wrote:
RCLCJR wrote:....Then you have something special, a good looking dog that is actually a good dog all around too.
No; then you have a retarded abomination, that waddles on stubby legs instead of running, and has such a short muzzle that it can't breathe, or wrap it's jaws around a goose.

The conformation ring does one thing, and one thing only. Destroys the genetics of good working breeds.


The conformation ring is an entity, and doesn't destroy anything; breeders do that.

I would be interested to know how many of you who rag on conformation showing belong to your national breed club, which writes the standard for your breed. Where were you when the revised size standard was proposed and the big battle over same erupted? How many of you have stood up against the hush-hush attitude toward epilepsy in FT labs; and for those of you who don't know, EIC, which "occurs predominately in FT labs" is considered to be a form of epilepsy and is treated with phenobarb (reference AKC canine health foundation). How much have you donated toward research for health problems such as EIC?

If you don't like the direction your breed has taken in the show ring (and personally I find it appalling), speak up. Show judges have the option of withholding placements if, in their opinion, nothing in the ring meets the standard; maybe it is time to insist they exercise that option. Maybe it is also time show breeders started insisting field breeders be more open regarding health problems in their lines. No discipline is free of serious faults, but if people within those disciplines are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. It would be helpful if people took their egos and wallets out of the equation and started doing what is right for the dogs; they, after all, are ultimately the ones who pay the highest price for our decisions.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:56 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....If you don't like the direction your breed has taken in the show ring (and personally I find it appalling), speak up......
It's not just A breed. It's ALL breeds.

The only way that a working line of any breed can continue to produce dogs that can do the work, is for the breed to split.
And even your beloved breed of choice has itself begun to split.

The conformation system is destructive to functional genetic selection across the board.
The breeds that no longer have a working purpose, and are solely competed in the ring, are already doomed.

The conformation ring IS the problem.
It can't be fixed, because the system itself inevitably produces the exaggeration of irrelevant traits.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:11 pm

copterdoc wrote:
Irishwhistler wrote:.....Copterdoc.
What's ye point?

Irishwhistler
My point is that no, they don't have blocky heads and muzzles.
They don't, because they were bred to work, rather than conform to an appearance standard that exaggerates irrelevant features.

Form follows function, not the other way around.
When a breed is bred based primarily on function, beauty is the inevitable outcome.

The British dogs in the video are all beautiful, possessing naturally sound structure.
What is paraded around the show ring does not.





Doc, I am going to ask you for a huge favor, and no, there is no "trick" involved here. You state that the British dogs in the video are beautiful and possess naturally sound structure. When you have time, and it will take some, could you compare the structure of those dogs to the written American standard, point by point? I think it would be instructive to see how close those dogs resemble our written standard, and you are the only poster who has commented on structure, so you get the duty. :smile: Again, absolutely no ulterior motive here, just an honest request. TIA.
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Re: English labs

Postby mmig » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:35 am

First thanks to all who actually answered the question and gave me what I asked for which was referrals, and references.

Second I stated I would like a dog with certain features, which is no different than preferring a dog that is yellow, black, chocolate, or heck why not even silver. I do not want a show dog I can hunt. I just want a dog who I can train myself to duck hunt with me. I don't want to do field trials or take them to any dog shows. Am I wrong for wanting a dog who can hunt and also looks good?

RCLCJR those are very nice looking labs, thanks for the pics and response. Would you happen to know the name of the kennel they came from?
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Re: English labs

Postby mmig » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:45 am

RCLCJR wrote:Theres a guy here in north Carolina that breeds some good looking dogs. Here is mine, just turned 16 months. He's an American though.

probably the best looking American lab I've seen.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:19 am

mmig wrote:First thanks to all who actually answered the question and gave me what I asked for which was referrals, and references.

Second I stated I would like a dog with certain features, which is no different than preferring a dog that is yellow, black, chocolate, or heck why not even silver. I do not want a show dog I can hunt. I just want a dog who I can train myself to duck hunt with me. I don't want to do field trials or take them to any dog shows. Am I wrong for wanting a dog who can hunt and also looks good?

RCLCJR those are very nice looking labs, thanks for the pics and response. Would you happen to know the name of the kennel they came from?


It's just a matter of prioritizing what's important in a dog, if you want one that trains well, can handle the pressure of the job and be an all round good dog to own. If looks trumps quality - you may well be disappointed in the end.

What you say "English" the connotation is show bred for most. "British" typically working lines. "American" much harder to describe. While I think everyone realizes you are not a Field Trialer - the "American" working lines often come from Field Trial backgrounds somewhere in the pedigree.

Helping people 'find dogs' is quite a chore unless the buyer has a clear set of objectives, based on the right criteria for a working dog.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:59 am

copterdoc wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....If you don't like the direction your breed has taken in the show ring (and personally I find it appalling), speak up......
It's not just A breed. It's ALL breeds.

The only way that a working line of any breed can continue to produce dogs that can do the work, is for the breed to split.
And even your beloved breed of choice has itself begun to split.

The conformation system is destructive to functional genetic selection across the board.
The breeds that no longer have a working purpose, and are solely competed in the ring, are already doomed.

The conformation ring IS the problem.
It can't be fixed, because the system itself inevitably produces the exaggeration of irrelevant traits.


So how is it that breeders of dogs like Brittanys and GSPs continue to produce DC's to this day, some of which were heavily campaigned in the show ring?? Once again, the conformation ring is not the problem, it is what breeders choose to present in the ring. Judges can only judge what is put in front of them on the day.

I have two problems with those of you who rag on the conformation ring. One is, if you don't like what is being shown, put your money where your mouth is and put your field dog, which is a good example of form to function and bred to the standard, into the ring; give the judge something else to evaluate. Two, y'all tend to scoff at basic titles; exactly what does that attitude do to encourage newbies to field work to continue on with their dogs?

One of the stated goals of our club tests is to encourage folks new to the breed and testing to continue more advanced training with their dogs. I ran two club tests that were set up and judged by FT folks, one of whom was notorious for his low opinion of the club tests/titles. His first setup on land was way over the line for a WD; they started with 23 dogs and took 3 to water. His attitude during the whole thing was obvious, and did nothing to make folks want to continue to obtain higher titles. The other event went OK until we got to the WDQ, and then there was a break in the action for a big argument over what line the dog should take on the land blind (square the side hill and cast at the bottom vs. take the angle). This happened right in front of God and everybody, and left a bit of a bad impression with a lot of folks. This was not an OpenAA stake, but the judges treated it like one. At least the dogs that squared the line had the opportunity to show they would handle, and to my mind in a club test, should have gotten credit for that if done well. Dogs that lined it left the judges with no idea of whether the dog would stop and take a cast.

This whole split breeds thing is not just a problem in dogs; take a look at what has happened to the Quarter horse, and what is currently happening with Arabians. And as for the conformation ring rewarding exaggeration of irrelevant traits, the same thing happens in performance events; take a look at what is being rewarded in the western pleasure divisions for Quarter horses. To their credit, those folks who are disgusted with the perversion of the standard have spoken out and begun to turn things around. It can be done, just takes enough folks to quit wasting their complaining to each other on forums and actually getting off their behinds and doing something. You have a written standard for Labs for a reason; it is up to those of you who love the breed to see to it that it is adhered to, whether in the conformation ring or the field.
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Re: English labs

Postby TracyII » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:18 am

copterdoc wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....If you don't like the direction your breed has taken in the show ring (and personally I find it appalling), speak up......
It's not just A breed. It's ALL breeds.

The only way that a working line of any breed can continue to produce dogs that can do the work, is for the breed to split.
And even your beloved breed of choice has itself begun to split.

The conformation system is destructive to functional genetic selection across the board.
The breeds that no longer have a working purpose, and are solely competed in the ring, are already doomed.

The conformation ring IS the problem.
It can't be fixed, because the system itself inevitably produces the exaggeration of irrelevant traits.


Not all breeds are doomed. The pudelpointer has yet to be seen in a show ring...Bred by and for hunters only.

I agreed that breeding for form over function is the doom of breeds. I hope I never see the PP in the show ring.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:47 am

TracyII wrote:
copterdoc wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....If you don't like the direction your breed has taken in the show ring (and personally I find it appalling), speak up......
It's not just A breed. It's ALL breeds.

The only way that a working line of any breed can continue to produce dogs that can do the work, is for the breed to split.
And even your beloved breed of choice has itself begun to split.

The conformation system is destructive to functional genetic selection across the board.
The breeds that no longer have a working purpose, and are solely competed in the ring, are already doomed.

The conformation ring IS the problem.
It can't be fixed, because the system itself inevitably produces the exaggeration of irrelevant traits.


Not all breeds are doomed. The pudelpointer has yet to be seen in a show ring...Bred by and for hunters only.

I agreed that breeding for form over function is the doom of breeds. I hope I never see the PP in the show ring.


You have to believe someone is trying to get the breed as AKC recognized, perhaps for that reason alone. Despite the uptick in eligible breeds for AKC Retriever Tests, I have not seen many 'Versatile' dogs run. Would actually like to but we'll do our best to keep the PP out of the fray as long as possible. :lol3: :thumbsup:
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Re: English labs

Postby Labs » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:05 am

Here are my ugly American style labs...sleek, athletic....but wait, what's this? No pointy snout? Don't looke like a sausage with 4 legs? This is pure beauty to me...

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