English labs

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Re: English labs

Postby TracyII » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:32 am

HNTFSH wrote:
TracyII wrote:
copterdoc wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....If you don't like the direction your breed has taken in the show ring (and personally I find it appalling), speak up......
It's not just A breed. It's ALL breeds.

The only way that a working line of any breed can continue to produce dogs that can do the work, is for the breed to split.
And even your beloved breed of choice has itself begun to split.

The conformation system is destructive to functional genetic selection across the board.
The breeds that no longer have a working purpose, and are solely competed in the ring, are already doomed.

The conformation ring IS the problem.
It can't be fixed, because the system itself inevitably produces the exaggeration of irrelevant traits.


Not all breeds are doomed. The pudelpointer has yet to be seen in a show ring...Bred by and for hunters only.

I agreed that breeding for form over function is the doom of breeds. I hope I never see the PP in the show ring.


You have to believe someone is trying to get the breed as AKC recognized, perhaps for that reason alone. Despite the uptick in eligible breeds for AKC Retriever Tests, I have not seen many 'Versatile' dogs run. Would actually like to but we'll do our best to keep the PP out of the fray as long as possible. :lol3: :thumbsup:


Thank you sir..
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Re: English labs

Postby labsforme » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:00 pm

Dawns, as an FYI EIC is not "predominately" in FT labs. Show "labs" just don't exhibit the symptoms as much. I have never heard it even being associated with epilepsy either. I own an EIC affected from before the test was verified.I Just double checked on the definitive experts on EIC the U of Mn website. Please do research before promoting incorrect information.
Also there is a big split between show GSP and FT GSP. Had an FC/AFC and was in the game a long time. Brittany's require FT dogs to have a conformation certificate before they can title.
In regards to conformation judges: they put up dogs that are not within the breed standard. It is a subjective game. Try and show a dog that is fit and you would never even turn a head.
My avatar is within standard and is a 3 x NFC Lottie granddaughter .Excellent hunting dog too.
Back to the OP if you want a good hunting dog stick with proven lines. Keep away from show lines from either side of the big pond.

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Re: English labs

Postby Duck Diver » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:55 pm

http://www.lorkenfarms.com/banchory_bolo.htm


Thats some good reading for fans of either side FC/CH
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:24 pm

Duck Diver wrote:http://www.lorkenfarms.com/banchory_bolo.htm


Thats some good reading for fans of either side FC/CH


Yes, well before the birth of the Pigador in the ring. :lol3:
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:21 pm

labsforme wrote:Dawns, as an FYI EIC is not "predominately" in FT labs. Show "labs" just don't exhibit the symptoms as much. I have never heard it even being associated with epilepsy either. I own an EIC affected from before the test was verified.I Just double checked on the definitive experts on EIC the U of Mn website. Please do research before promoting incorrect information.
Also there is a big split between show GSP and FT GSP. Had an FC/AFC and was in the game a long time. Brittany's require FT dogs to have a conformation certificate before they can title.
In regards to conformation judges: they put up dogs that are not within the breed standard. It is a subjective game. Try and show a dog that is fit and you would never even turn a head.
My avatar is within standard and is a 3 x NFC Lottie granddaughter .Excellent hunting dog too.
Back to the OP if you want a good hunting dog stick with proven lines. Keep away from show lines from either side of the big pond.

Jeff G


I provided the source of the information in the post you are referring to, you might want to contact AKC and advise them of their incorrect information.

If there is a split in the GSP breed, it has happened in the last 7 years; last Dual was recorded in 2007 (as opposed to 1984 for labs). As for Britts, I am not talking about a certificate, their 600th Dual was listed in 2012.

Any judge that consistently and blatantly puts up dogs that are not within the standard will not last very long. Have you never seen a judge's decision protested? It's not just about a winning dog being "within" the standard, it is about the dog that is closest to the ideal as described in the standard. Are there politics and unethical dealings involved in dog shows? Sure there are (ask me how I know), just as there are in any competition involving human beings, but it is not nearly as rampant as some people believe.

The national breed club makes up the written standards for show dogs; who makes up the membership of those clubs?? Who votes in the officers and board members?? Where were you when the battle over the height revision was going on? Do you know that if that resolution had passed, it would have effectively voided a large number of current CH's?

The point that I was making in my posts was that no group is free of problems (and my reference to epilepsy was based on something that I had personal knowledge of). If you think your breed standard is amiss, do something about it besides complaining to like-minded folks on a forum, which is totally non-productive. Get a bunch of your buddies with properly-conformed labs together and flood a show ring; if the judge passes you by, find out why he did so. Then challenge the pigador exhibitors to do likewise in field tests. :wink:
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Re: English labs

Postby Dakota Creek » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:51 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:Get a bunch of your buddies with properly-conformed labs together and flood a show ringfield.


Please tell me why I would waste my money to put my female who is totally at breed standard and a GMHR-III / MH in the show ring?? I have been told by an English Setter breeder who knows the Sporting Group (currently has an AKC / CKC show champion and had the top sporting dog in Canada three years ago and #4 in the US and therefore is familiar as to what is being put up by the judges) that we would be laughed out of the ring as she is at least 10 pounds underweight ... Probably more like 15 pounds underweight for the dogs that are winning in the ring.

I believe you yourself stated that the judges if they followed the breed standard could pass on putting any dog up ... But they do not ... Unfortunately they keep awarding the "pigadors" that are there in the ring with them.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:41 pm

Dakota Creek wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:Get a bunch of your buddies with properly-conformed labs together and flood a show ringfield.


Please tell me why I would waste my money to put my female who is totally at breed standard and a GMHR-III / MH in the show ring?? I have been told by an English Setter breeder who knows the Sporting Group (currently has an AKC / CKC show champion and had the top sporting dog in Canada three years ago and #4 in the US and therefore is familiar as to what is being put up by the judges) that we would be laughed out of the ring as she is at least 10 pounds underweight ... Probably more like 15 pounds underweight for the dogs that are winning in the ring.

I believe you yourself stated that the judges if they followed the breed standard could pass on putting any dog up ... But they do not ... Unfortunately they keep awarding the "pigadors" that are there in the ring with them.


Dakota, I have no intention to telling you how to spend your money. Have you read the breed standard, and compared your dog to it? Might be interesting to do so.

There are several reasons why a judge might not choose to withhold placements; I have seen it done, but rarely. When a judge is presented with a ring full of dogs all similar in type, what is there to choose from? If you standard allows pigadors to go up unchallenged (via formal protest procedure), then perhaps the fault lies in that standard. Once again, who is responsible for the standard? And, once again, where were all the field folks coming out to support the height revision resolution?

This whole trend which led to the current situation should have been stopped in it's tracks, but the horse is well out of the barn and into the next county. Part of the problem is that many breeders, in all disciplines, no longer breed generation-ally; their only concern is what is hot and selling right now. They don't recognize how the decisions they make today will impact on the breed in future years. Look at what is happening in the Thoroughbred industry via the changes in breeder goals, and how those changes are destroying what was once a vibrant business.

This won't be fixed overnight, but it will never be fixed by venting on forums. The Quarter horse performance folks are making positive changes in one of their disciplines, no reason why dog folks can't organize and do the same .
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:21 pm

Changing the standard won't solve anything.

The problem isn't with the standard.
The problem is with a system that evaluates dogs based not on what they actually DO, but rather on what they look like.

You could change the breed standard 1,000 times. None of the changes will ever solve the problem.

The system will keep doing what it does, blissfully ignorant of the obvious and simple fact that what works, actually is what works. Whether we think that it looks like it should, or not.

The breeders will keep exaggerating irrelevant but visually prominent traits, trading away infinitely more important, but less tangible traits that the dog actually needs to possess, in order to perform it's job at a high level.

They do it, so their dog has "more" of whatever it is that wins.
Over the course of time, "more" then becomes average, so more "more" is needed to win. And the cycle continues.

That's what the conformation system DOES!!!!!
Every time, with every breed. It just takes time.

Meanwhile, the lines that were split away from the mess, and selected to be bred without much regard for physical appearance but rather for a high level of performance, continue to produce dogs that look just about the same as the breed standard said they should look a century ago.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:57 pm

I am kinda enjoying the thought of you and Chris from Dakota taking the show ring in your snappy blazers and trotting around in protest.
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Re: English labs

Postby ohio mike » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:29 pm

HNTFSH wrote:I am kinda enjoying the thought of you and Chris from Dakota taking the show ring in your snappy blazers and trotting around in protest.



Make that Blazers AND Kilts. Quite European you know.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:20 am

copterdoc wrote:Changing the standard won't solve anything.

The problem isn't with the standard.
The problem is with a system that evaluates dogs based not on what they actually DO, but rather on what they look like.

You could change the breed standard 1,000 times. None of the changes will ever solve the problem.

The system will keep doing what it does, blissfully ignorant of the obvious and simple fact that what works, actually is what works. Whether we think that it looks like it should, or not.

The breeders will keep exaggerating irrelevant but visually prominent traits, trading away infinitely more important, but less tangible traits that the dog actually needs to possess, in order to perform it's job at a high level.

They do it, so their dog has "more" of whatever it is that wins.
Over the course of time, "more" then becomes average, so more "more" is needed to win. And the cycle continues.

That's what the conformation system DOES!!!!!
Every time, with every breed. It just takes time.

Meanwhile, the lines that were split away from the mess, and selected to be bred without much regard for physical appearance but rather for a high level of performance, continue to produce dogs that look just about the same as the breed standard said they should look a century ago.


Before I comment further on your post, riddle me this: What is the goal/purpose of the Labrador written standard?
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Re: English labs

Postby TracyII » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:07 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
copterdoc wrote:Changing the standard won't solve anything.

The problem isn't with the standard.
The problem is with a system that evaluates dogs based not on what they actually DO, but rather on what they look like.

You could change the breed standard 1,000 times. None of the changes will ever solve the problem.

The system will keep doing what it does, blissfully ignorant of the obvious and simple fact that what works, actually is what works. Whether we think that it looks like it should, or not.

The breeders will keep exaggerating irrelevant but visually prominent traits, trading away infinitely more important, but less tangible traits that the dog actually needs to possess, in order to perform it's job at a high level.

They do it, so their dog has "more" of whatever it is that wins.
Over the course of time, "more" then becomes average, so more "more" is needed to win. And the cycle continues.

That's what the conformation system DOES!!!!!
Every time, with every breed. It just takes time.

Meanwhile, the lines that were split away from the mess, and selected to be bred without much regard for physical appearance but rather for a high level of performance, continue to produce dogs that look just about the same as the breed standard said they should look a century ago.


Before I comment further on your post, riddle me this: What is the goal/purpose of the Labrador written standard?


I assume it is dual purpose: to ensure a man made idea of what a particular breed ought to look like continues to produce specimens of that breed that reflect that of the original examples of the breed and 2 to promote longevity and working ability.

The problem is there are good examples of choosing stock based on working ability alone and how this produces the best workers, take the American Field Pointer for example. No written standard, no show dogs, stock is chosen on working ability alone. Those with poor conformation to perform the task don't win and don't get bred. Performance should dictate what good working confirmation should be not a bunch of blue hairs that neither them or their dogs have ever seen a gun or duck.
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Re: English labs

Postby Duck Diver » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:28 am

I'm just reading along and laughing mostly.


I do like to point out things when people get off track.

When above poster said the "blue hairs" have never seen a gun or duck. Did he mean fish or fishing net? The purpose the dogs were bred for?
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Re: English labs

Postby TracyII » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:33 am

Duck Diver wrote:I'm just reading along and laughing mostly.


I do like to point out things when people get off track.

When above poster said the "blue hairs" have never seen a gun or duck. Did he mean fish or fishing net? The purpose the dogs were bred for?

LOL! You got a point.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:38 am

I'm just dying to know what kind of treat the show dog is given by the handler when showing. Might should be a bit less in fat, just sayin'. And why treat them for doing their job as trained? What's wrong with a happy bumper at the end?
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Re: English labs

Postby Dakota Creek » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:55 am

HNTFSH wrote:I am kinda enjoying the thought of you and Chris from Dakota taking the show ring in your snappy blazers and trotting around in protest.


Not gonna happen! LOL! I prefer my "dog sports" to be judged by the working ability of the dog and not judged like Olympic ice skating and the ability of the dog to stand still and eat treats held in the handlers mouth! :biggrin:
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Re: English labs

Postby Dakota Creek » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:00 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote: Before I comment further on your post, riddle me this: What is the goal/purpose of the Labrador written standard?


As far as the show ring is concerned, obviously it is not worth the paper it is written on when THE breed standard calls for dogs to be 60-80 lbs and bitches to be 55-75 lbs and the majority (*note - I did not say all) of the dogs that are being placed do not fall anywhere near this in weight.
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Re: English labs

Postby labsforme » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:17 am

Dawns, The breed standard for Labs is not the problem it is the lack of application on the part of show judges. In most show "labs" look at the ratio of bone to height. Muzzle too short, length of body to height, etc.
If I remember correctly you breed Chessies?
As far as GSP I trained and ran GSP in the early 1980s and prior to that hunted them. I had an Adam Von Fuehrerheim (sp) granddaughter. The split between field and show was from even before that. The number of duals has greatly diminished since the 80s.Show dogs tall, heavier bone etc resulted in much slower, ploddy dogs. My FT dogs were from German imports such as Esser's Chick.
Again on the U of Mn website there is statements to the effect of EIC being more of a muscle metabolic/synapsis communication problem not related to epilepsy.

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Re: English labs

Postby Dakota Creek » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 am

labsforme wrote:Dawns, The breed standard for Labs is not the problem it is the lack of application on the part of show judges. ......

Again on the U of Mn website there is statements to the effect of EIC being more of a muscle metabolic/synapsis communication problem not related to epilepsy.

Jeff G


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Re: English labs

Postby labman63 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:19 am

Waiting on response....that could be one of mine. Looks a lot like some of the males from last two litters.



mmig wrote:
RCLCJR wrote:Theres a guy here in north Carolina that breeds some good looking dogs. Here is mine, just turned 16 months. He's an American though.

probably the best looking American lab I've seen.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:50 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:.......Before I comment further on your post, riddle me this: What is the goal/purpose of the Labrador written standard?
It doesn't matter what the purpose of the Breed Standard is, if it doesn't work.
And it doesn't.

It doesn't matter what the purpose of the Registry is, if it doesn't work.
And it doesn't.

It doesn't matter what the purpose of the Parent Club is, if it doesn't work.
And it doesn't.

It doesn't matter what the purpose of a dog's breed is; what the Standard describes as the ideal specimen, or even how well documented and enforced the Registry is; if the dogs that are winning in the ring can't do the work.
And they can't.
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Re: English labs

Postby dan922 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:35 pm

Sounds like this thread should be titled "field lines vs. show lines." I had the opportunity to work with both American and British labs working as IED detection dogs in Afghanistan, as well as having hunted over both. Usually if the dog sucked it was due to the handler being worthless. They're both great hunting dogs if they've been selectively bred for that purpose and they are both great looking dogs IMHO. I was really hoping that this forum would be a good place to seek advice while working with my lab, but it seems to just be a place to argue whose dog is better.
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:56 pm

dan922 wrote:Sounds like this thread should be titled "field lines vs. show lines." I had the opportunity to work with both American and British labs working as IED detection dogs in Afghanistan, as well as having hunted over both. Usually if the dog sucked it was due to the handler being worthless. They're both great hunting dogs if they've been selectively bred for that purpose and they are both great looking dogs IMHO. I was really hoping that this forum would be a good place to seek advice while working with my lab, but it seems to just be a place to argue whose dog is better.


You hit the nail on the head Dan. I know guys that hunt with their labs born in a barn to a a sire and dame that no one knows, guys that hunt English labs and british labs and believe it or not a guy that used an Australian Shepard....if you can train the dog you are good to go. I recently started digging into this "find the perfect pedigree pup and he will be awesome" hunt. And I met breeders with national champion dogs that wouldn't listen to squat unless the e-collar was on.
Some of these guys have good advice on here but you can't read too deep into all of their opinions.
And I'm sure as soon as this post goes up there will be a lot to say about me....and thats okay. I have no problems with what they believe and what they do, but its not for everyone.
Good luck with your pup and God bless.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:28 pm

Bassfishn08 wrote:....And I met breeders with national champion dogs that wouldn't listen to squat unless the e-collar was on.....
That's really funny.

How many times have you seen a dog wearing an e-collar at a Field Trial?
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:28 pm

copterdoc wrote:
Bassfishn08 wrote:....And I met breeders with national champion dogs that wouldn't listen to squat unless the e-collar was on.....
How many times have you seen a dog wearing an e-collar at a Field Trial?
I'll help jog your memory.
The answer is zero times, because they aren't allowed on the grounds of a Field Trial, or Hunt Test.

And you've also never met a breeder with National Champion dogs.
You've never even talked to one on the phone.

Here's a slideshow from the 2014 National Amateur Retriever Championship. It's pretty cool.
http://video214.com/play/LC4pzQZIxIffac4CjbWUQA/s/dark
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