English labs

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Re: English labs

Postby cluckmeister » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:32 pm

copterdoc wrote:
copterdoc wrote:
Bassfishn08 wrote:....And I met breeders with national champion dogs that wouldn't listen to squat unless the e-collar was on.....
How many times have you seen a dog wearing an e-collar at a Field Trial?
I'll help jog your memory.
The answer is zero times, because they aren't allowed on the grounds of a Field Trial, or Hunt Test.

And you've also never met a breeder with National Champion dogs.
You've never even talked to one on the phone.

Here's a slideshow from the 2014 National Amateur Retriever Championship. It's pretty cool.
http://video214.com/play/LC4pzQZIxIffac4CjbWUQA/s/dark



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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:41 pm

dan922 wrote:Sounds like this thread should be titled "field lines vs. show lines." I had the opportunity to work with both American and British labs working as IED detection dogs in Afghanistan, as well as having hunted over both. Usually if the dog sucked it was due to the handler being worthless. They're both great hunting dogs if they've been selectively bred for that purpose and they are both great looking dogs IMHO. I was really hoping that this forum would be a good place to seek advice while working with my lab, but it seems to just be a place to argue whose dog is better.


It can be a good resource. Just no value if asking about English Labs if you're looking for info on training your dog. Make sense?

Again, in many's minds there is a big difference between English and British as the industry refers to them.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:42 pm

cluckmeister wrote:....Doc are you part Gypsy and have a crystal ball, I always wonder by the way you post things sometimes,
What he said was so galactically stupid, that a 5 year old kid could have smelled the BS coming out of the computer screen.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:45 pm

Bassfishn08 wrote:
dan922 wrote:And I met breeders with national champion dogs that wouldn't listen to squat unless the e-collar was on.


I seriously doubt the credibility of this statement as well. In fact, it's not true at all.
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Re: English labs

Postby cluckmeister » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:49 pm

I guess I read it a bit differently , I don't see any where that he said he met them at or on field trial property.

Ill go back to my popcorn now LOL
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:55 pm

cluckmeister wrote:I guess I read it a bit differently , I don't see any where that he said he met them at or on field trial property.

Ill go back to my popcorn now LOL


Obedience, and I mean really good obedience, is the foundation built well before Field Trials are run or won. Hunt tests for that matter. Collar on or off makes no difference, if you know how/why an e-collar is trained.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm

cluckmeister wrote:I guess I read it a bit differently , I don't see any where that he said he met them at or on field trial property.

Ill go back to my popcorn now LOL
Believe it or not a dog cannot qualify to run in a National, without consistently doing an absolutely fabulous job of listening to a whole lot more than "squat", on quite a few different Field Trial properties.
Last edited by copterdoc on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English labs

Postby cluckmeister » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:00 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
cluckmeister wrote:I guess I read it a bit differently , I don't see any where that he said he met them at or on field trial property.

Ill go back to my popcorn now LOL


Obedience, and I mean really good obedience, is the foundation built well before Field Trials are run or won. Hunt tests for that matter. Collar on or off makes no difference, if you know how/why an e-collar is trained.


Im just a fellow that's trained about 10 dogs to hunt waterfowl in my life time much to the dismay of my dad who was a professional bird dog trainer. Maybe the old man was wrong to the experts on this topic, but, he always said Obedience is the key to having a good dog regardless of what hes trained for. Looks didn't matter much to him as long as they did what he required of them
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:05 pm

Obedience is the first step. It has to be done right.
If you eff up the first step, you aren't ever going to have a dog worth hunting with.

But, there's still a whole bunch of steps beyond that first one, that also have to be done right in order to have a dog that will actually WORK for you as a Retriever.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:07 pm

cluckmeister wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
cluckmeister wrote:I guess I read it a bit differently , I don't see any where that he said he met them at or on field trial property.

Ill go back to my popcorn now LOL


Obedience, and I mean really good obedience, is the foundation built well before Field Trials are run or won. Hunt tests for that matter. Collar on or off makes no difference, if you know how/why an e-collar is trained.


Im just a fellow that's trained about 10 dogs to hunt waterfowl in my life time much to the dismay of my dad who was a professional bird dog trainer. Maybe the old man was wrong to the experts on this topic, but, he always said Obedience is the key to having a good dog regardless of what hes trained for. Looks didn't matter much to him as long as they did what he required of them


Then you would recognize that a good hunting dog, much less a Champion awarded working dog,would respond extremely well to any command with or without an e-collar on, right?

As far as breeding, I also agree looks don't matter. Breeding and genetics do.
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:32 am

copterdoc wrote:
cluckmeister wrote:....Doc are you part Gypsy and have a crystal ball, I always wonder by the way you post things sometimes,
What he said was so galactically stupid, that a 5 year old kid could have smelled the BS coming out of the computer screen.

I knew my post would stir things up. I did not meet the dogs at a FT. I met them at a breeders home when I attempted to purchase a puppy just last week and HNTFSH knows I'm not BSing.
I will not drop the name of the breeder or the dogs on this website, because unlike "copterjaws" I'm not looking to bash others on DHC.
What I was attempting to say, others said better...obedience out weighs pedigree in my opinion. I have absolutely no knowledge of field trials and do not claim to, but its not hard to observe a dog working for a hunter from a blind or when you make a 7.5 drive round trip to pick out a pup because you based your decision off of their parents pedigree which included 23 hall of fame dogs. Then you arrive there and the national titled parents are so out of control that they cannot even get them to come to them, sit still or stop jumping and hitting your infant child that your wife is holding and they have to put them back into one of the 100 kennels with the 200 other dogs they own.
Titles do not equal good obedience and work ability from the blind. What the FT people call "drive" the remainder of the world calls hyperactivity.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:52 am

Really don't want to argue but do want to be accurate.

First, working backwards, you're right - title doesn't equal obedience. It usually means trainability though. It does also usually mean drive. Two things valuable in a gundog.

The sire was a SH with 3 master passes and out of a Hall of Fame dog x MH. The bitch a HRCH UH MH out of NAFC/AFC/FC dog x MH.

Neither dog (parent) was a national champion.

Their pups you looked at were 4 months old. Don't know what, if any, obedience work they had been through. Exposure probably better than most . If the pups were all running around in a group and not to your liking, as they were young vibrant puppies of 16 weeks, they would likely be running around like little wild Indians.

Did the breeder say something like 'excuse them they haven't been collar conditioned yet" and that is how you came to the e-collar comment? That's the only thing that makes sense.

I wouldn't be so quick to cast highly accomplished pedigreed dogs as you have. Nor label or bundle them nearly suggesting that a low drive dog is the better one to have. In effect that is the impression you are trying to give and it's not accurate. As has been said, no dog comes trained at birth. Low drive dogs are better for people who don't or can't train and don't have much expectation for the training the dog will get. Hence, you often see the term "gentleman's gundog" when trying to appeal to that buyer set.
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:39 am

HNTFSH wrote:Really don't want to argue but do want to be accurate.

First, working backwards, you're right - title doesn't equal obedience. It usually means trainability though. It does also usually mean drive. Two things valuable in a gundog.

The sire was a SH with 3 master passes and out of a Hall of Fame dog x MH. The bitch a HRCH UH MH out of NAFC/AFC/FC dog x MH.

Neither dog (parent) was a national champion.

Their pups you looked at were 4 months old. Don't know what, if any, obedience work they had been through. Exposure probably better than most . If the pups were all running around in a group and not to your liking, as they were young vibrant puppies of 16 weeks, they would likely be running around like little wild Indians.

Did the breeder say something like 'excuse them they haven't been collar conditioned yet" and that is how you came to the e-collar comment? That's the only thing that makes sense.

I wouldn't be so quick to cast highly accomplished pedigreed dogs as you have. Nor label or bundle them nearly suggesting that a low drive dog is the better one to have. In effect that is the impression you are trying to give and it's not accurate. As has been said, no dog comes trained at birth. Low drive dogs are better for people who don't or can't train and don't have much expectation for the training the dog will get. Hence, you often see the term "gentleman's gundog" when trying to appeal to that buyer set.



I am in no way saying a low drive house dog is any better if that is the impression I am giving. What I am saying is people read into pedigree way too much, as I made the same mistake, and witnessed "trained" adult dogs that were not controlable. That's all I am saying. I was in no means trying to say that FT dogs are bad or the owners are. I know there are well trained FT dogs but not all FT dogs are well trained and if you purchase a dog thinking that the pedigree makes the dog and not the training then your wrong. If you think that a dog without the high pedigree cannot be trained then you are also wrong. That is all I am saying. I do believe the name of the forum is "hunting dogs" and not everyone wants the same cloned FT dog. Different strokes for different folks. People should respect other peoples opinions in here and not bash a guy when he says he wants to buy an English lab because he doesn't want the same dog as you have.
I'm curious to know how many of the people commenting in here purchase started dogs, finished dogs or have a professional train their dog. If you do, then you don't really have an argument for trainability. Just saying.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:00 am

Bassfishn08 wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:Really don't want to argue but do want to be accurate.

First, working backwards, you're right - title doesn't equal obedience. It usually means trainability though. It does also usually mean drive. Two things valuable in a gundog.

The sire was a SH with 3 master passes and out of a Hall of Fame dog x MH. The bitch a HRCH UH MH out of NAFC/AFC/FC dog x MH.

Neither dog (parent) was a national champion.

Their pups you looked at were 4 months old. Don't know what, if any, obedience work they had been through. Exposure probably better than most . If the pups were all running around in a group and not to your liking, as they were young vibrant puppies of 16 weeks, they would likely be running around like little wild Indians.

Did the breeder say something like 'excuse them they haven't been collar conditioned yet" and that is how you came to the e-collar comment? That's the only thing that makes sense.

I wouldn't be so quick to cast highly accomplished pedigreed dogs as you have. Nor label or bundle them nearly suggesting that a low drive dog is the better one to have. In effect that is the impression you are trying to give and it's not accurate. As has been said, no dog comes trained at birth. Low drive dogs are better for people who don't or can't train and don't have much expectation for the training the dog will get. Hence, you often see the term "gentleman's gundog" when trying to appeal to that buyer set.



I am in no way saying a low drive house dog is any better if that is the impression I am giving. What I am saying is people read into pedigree way too much, as I made the same mistake, and witnessed "trained" adult dogs that were not controlable. That's all I am saying. I was in no means trying to say that FT dogs are bad or the owners are. I know there are well trained FT dogs but not all FT dogs are well trained and if you purchase a dog thinking that the pedigree makes the dog and not the training then your wrong. If you think that a dog without the high pedigree cannot be trained then you are also wrong. That is all I am saying. I do believe the name of the forum is "hunting dogs" and not everyone wants the same cloned FT dog. Different strokes for different folks. People should respect other peoples opinions in here and not bash a guy when he says he wants to buy an English lab because he doesn't want the same dog as you have.
I'm curious to know how many of the people commenting in here purchase started dogs, finished dogs or have a professional train their dog. If you do, then you don't really have an argument for trainability. Just saying.


Breeding matters. In anything. Proven abilities tend to produce ability. So on type of dog, would you prefer one who has only proven to 'win' anything based on looks or proven to have won something regarding performance? It's really that simple. If the former, I would question the objective for a pup expected to train and work, perform a job against it's nature and in the hands of an inexperienced trainer.

That does not mean the sire and dam have to be Field Trial champions. FCxFC breedings are for the enthusiast or experienced trainer that knows what they want, and what to expect. I think the novice gundog trainer does need a good pedigree though to most likely succeed as the ingredients for the pie they're baking are likely there, and quality at that.

Not sure what point you're trying to make on pro versus started. The most likely Started dog buyer is someone that can't or doesn't want to train a good gundog. Not the test or trial guy.

Pro's serve purposes in many capacities.

Many take pup ownership day one and do all the training themselves. If doing tests/trials (very few hunting only, but a few) have plenty of like experienced or better experienced folks around them that they train with.

You are totally off-base if you think trainability doesn't have something to do with the nature of the pup and it's heritage. And trainabaility in many's minds goes WELL beyond basic obedience or picking up a duck.
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Re: English labs

Postby crackerd » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:06 am

dan922 wrote:Sounds like this thread should be titled "field lines vs. show lines." I had the opportunity to work with both American and British labs working as IED detection dogs in Afghanistan, as well as having hunted over both. Usually if the dog sucked it was due to the handler being worthless. They're both great hunting dogs if they've been selectively bred for that purpose and they are both great looking dogs IMHO. I was really hoping that this forum would be a good place to seek advice while working with my lab, but it seems to just be a place to argue whose dog is better.


Where you located? - chances are we can find you a good place to train with experienced handlers and seek advice while working with your Lab. Retriever trainers - amateur trainers - are good about that...and leave the arguing for chair-borne commandos.

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Re: English labs

Postby cluckmeister » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:32 am

When I got my first Chessie 25 years ago, I took him to a obedience class. The class was taught by a fellow that trained dogs for the USAF and the first statement he made after introducing himself was. " Im not going to teach your dog obedience, Im going to teach YOU how to teach your dog obedience. I followed what I learned in that class and never had a dog that was unruly etc. I guess my point here is a lot of folks look to these topics seeking ideas from Pros on how to buy, take care of health wise, train the dog to their desires of what they want in a dog, and even type of dog to buy, be it Lab, Chessie, or Golden . Bickering back and forth about which is best, the show, field trial or hunting dogs, doesn't serve any purpose and most certainly doesn't help and does nothing but confuse a novice dog owner. I initially read the OP hoping to learn something about English Labs and American labs and the difference in the two. I like a few of the other fellows posting haven't learned a whole lot about the subject, but I have learned guys can argue everything else.

Just my 3 cents worth, inflation is a killer.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:37 am

crackerd wrote:and leave the arguing for chair-borne commandos.MG


I'm saving this quote for next time you fill the role. :lol3:
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:45 am

cluckmeister wrote:When I got my first Chessie 25 years ago, I took him to a obedience class. The class was taught by a fellow that trained dogs for the USAF and the first statement he made after introducing himself was. " Im not going to teach your dog obedience, Im going to teach YOU how to teach your dog obedience. I followed what I learned in that class and never had a dog that was unruly etc. I guess my point here is a lot of folks look to these topics seeking ideas from Pros on how to buy, take care of health wise, train the dog to their desires of what they want in a dog, and even type of dog to buy, be it Lab, Chessie, or Golden . Bickering back and forth about which is best, the show, field trial or hunting dogs, doesn't serve any purpose and most certainly doesn't help and does nothing but confuse a novice dog owner. I initially read the OP hoping to learn something about English Labs and American labs and the difference in the two. I like a few of the other fellows posting haven't learned a whole lot about the subject, but I have learned guys can argue everything else.

Just my 3 cents worth, inflation is a killer.


The trick is focusing on the data points. Mostly arguing comes when one party with no experience spouts an opinion and the other party spouts a retort from experience.

If you don't know, or are curious about English, versus British, versus American lab differences, visit websites of breeders that produce each. Compare accomplishments in the venue they are accomplished. It's that easy.

Now American can mean anything from dud backyard, bred-for-nothing dogs. So again, look for performance accomplishments on that side. And same for English or British. There is a sticky that shows the Acronyms at the tp of the forum.

You'll not find many people on here that brag about their proven, accomplished dog. They normally talk about the dogs faults or things that need work. On the other hand you'll find folks on the other end that say 'great' 'best' firebreather' 'no titles but fantastic' comments.

Which carries more credibility for you? Keep in mind I have the best looking wife, kids, dogs, and truck. Is that objective or subjective? :thumbsup:
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:59 pm

So, we've now gone from two National Champions, to a HRCH/SH Sire, and an untitled Dam. (HNTFSH's Dam info is incorrect)
That's quite an "adjustment" to say the least.

Is it also possible that they didn't really have 100 kennels, and weren't really housing 2 dogs to a kennel?
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:36 pm

copterdoc wrote:So, we've now gone from two National Champions, to a HRCH/SH Sire, and an untitled Dam. (HNTFSH's Dam info is incorrect)
That's quite an "adjustment" to say the least.

Is it also possible that they didn't really have 100 kennels, and weren't really housing 2 dogs to a kennel?


That is correct, thanks. Got whopper jawed in my edits.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:17 pm

Bassfishn08 wrote:.....I know there are well trained FT dogs but not all FT dogs are well trained and if you purchase a dog thinking that the pedigree makes the dog and not the training then your wrong......
I'll preface this by saying that I know Jack Shidtt about FT dogs.
You however, know infinitely less than that about them.

And until you realize that maybe, just maybe, you don't know a goddamned thing about the subject that you are trying to argue about, you will continue to be incapable of learning anything that you don't already know.

Which is less than nothing.

Bassfishn08 wrote:......People should respect other peoples opinions in here and not bash a guy when he says he wants to buy an English lab because he doesn't want the same dog as you have......
When you spout off absurdly erroneous "facts" as you have, the last thing that your opinions deserve is respect.

Bassfishn08 wrote:........I'm curious to know how many of the people commenting in here purchase started dogs, finished dogs or have a professional train their dog. If you do, then you don't really have an argument for trainability. Just saying.......
Until you have done all of the above at least once, you have no basis whatsoever to even possess an opinion on the subject.

And you haven't ever done any of the above options.
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Re: English labs

Postby Boocephus » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:45 pm

Holy Moly........ Did somebody have a bad day? :huh:
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:10 pm

"Thanks dude - your's too. I think the best breed...is the breed you own. That was a classic still-keep-the-woman-happy-and-get-to-go-hunting-too move on your part! Good work! :smile:"
HNTFSH....this is a quote you made about a guy hunting with a labradoodle a few years back. I guess you forgot where you came from.
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:12 pm

"Kinda nice to have a forum where you're not made to feel like an idiot for not hunting a German Shorthair, eh? lololololol...

Ah heck...they're all great."

And another......
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:13 pm

Bassfishn08 wrote:"Thanks dude - your's too. I think the best breed...is the breed you own. That was a classic still-keep-the-woman-happy-and-get-to-go-hunting-too move on your part! Good work! :smile:"
HNTFSH....this is a quote you made about a guy hunting with a labradoodle a few years back. I guess you forgot where you came from.


Easier to quote the source using the quote function. Post the entire thread.
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