English labs

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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:15 pm

HNTFSH wrote:
Bassfishn08 wrote:"Thanks dude - your's too. I think the best breed...is the breed you own. That was a classic still-keep-the-woman-happy-and-get-to-go-hunting-too move on your part! Good work! :smile:"
HNTFSH....this is a quote you made about a guy hunting with a labradoodle a few years back. I guess you forgot where you came from.


Easier to quote the source using the quote function. Post the entire thread.


Revised - both threads.
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:47 pm

"By the way, I have nothing against hunting with a poodle. All breeds of dogs have their own strengths and weaknesses."
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:53 pm

Rather than state unvalidated quotes out of context perhaps you can address your own post this morning which was shown to be totally untrue. Just sayin'.

Funny you never addressed the false statements you made.
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:43 pm

I made one unintentional wrong statement. The parents of the pups I saw were not NFC dogs. The grandparents were and the pedigree included mostly NFC dogs and several HOFs. The parents were MH only. Everything else about the breeder and their puppy mill was correct.
The father should have been controllable and you yourself HNTFSH suggested these pups due to the quality of the parents. The father having MH title and 3 qualifiers should be able to listen to the owner. My house/family dog that is not a hunting dog would never have acted in the manner he was. I can give you the name of a very reputable breeder, hunter and FT trainer that you HNTFSH know and they would confirm what I have said about the breeder. I however passed on the pups due to their age and noticeable lack of human interaction. By four months of age, I will have much more work into a dog than what they possessed and the dog was not the right fit for me.
My point, which was gravely taken out of context. The pedigree is not 100% of the picture. My good friends all have barn dog labs with no pedigree and paid next to nothing for them. Their dogs are obedient and will work from a blind.
Are your chances better with a high pedigree dog? Maybe. There are different opinions on that. Many people think that selective breeding has ruined the american lab. Selective breeding for purposes of completing certain field tasks only....
What about that discussion?

I never claimed to have any experience in field trials. I do however know how to train dogs and have obedience training experience. People that know me know that I raise very obedient dogs.
HNTFSH thinks that ranks at a 3, because no one can hold a candle to a FT trainer.
That may be, but the guy that asked for everyone's help is not a FT trainer and was simply asking for advice and instead everyone jumps on the band wagon to slam this guy and his preference in a dog.
The quotes you made can be verified through your profile posts.....you have over 18,000 of them but they were in pages 699-701 if you want to check from 2006.
I have nothing to say to copterjaws, he obviously types before he thinks.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:57 pm

You keep doing it.

The Sire is a HRCH/SH. Neither title is a MH.
The Dam, has no titles at all. She has no AKC passes at any level.

If you can't distinguish these fundamental differences, there is no possible way that reading a Pedigree will be of any service to you at all.

It may as well be written in Japanese.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:15 am

Bassfishn08

Wow...you are willing to say anything that isn't true, on purpose, to try and make a point.

First, YOU asked for 'help' finding a Chessie in NW Ohio, then you changed your mind and asked for help with a Lab. I made the mistake of trying to help. Won't do that again.

I suggested you look at this litter on Entry Express. They are a respected breeder and birth/train many very nice dogs. Not field trial champions but good, solid test/hunting dogs. It's probably obvious you don't know anything about test or trial accomplishments so no sense in pretending you do. It's OK not to know, it's not OK to misrepresent facts, because you don't know.

Now you call them a puppy mill. Another puffed up misrepresentation. Unless a pup is born in a barn without a pedigree, they are worthless according to you.

I also pointed you to 3 different British gun dog sites when you changed your mind to focus on British breeders. You did so likely after learning the difference between English and British on this very thread. In addition gave you the info for a local HRC club and the presidents' contact info as he may know of some good local litters.

No good deed goes unpunished. All you did was come back with lies and misrepresentations.

Then you start posting things you claim I have posted over 8 years which suggest contradiction with no context of the thread and tell me it's on me to source the thread?

Sorry if you are embarrassed as called out on your lie about the dogs you looked at. I certainly hope you DON'T contact anyone else I gave you to check out. They don't deserve you.
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Re: English labs

Postby Labs » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:30 am

^^^^ :clapping:
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Re: English labs

Postby Bassfishn08 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:29 pm

This is m last rebuttal because no one can get anywhere with you all. All you keep responding to is what the pedigree of the dogs I saw were.
As to that breeder. I pulled my communications with that person and we are either talking about two different litters or what was communicated to me was incorrect.
The father has 2 master hunter passes. I assumed that meant he was considered a MH. If it doesn't, then I am wrong. The mother was supposed to be a MH as well. I attempted to pull her info and it is no longer showing on their website. But I remember the lady saying that she is going to be qualified for a national title of some sort. I took her word for it, and yes i dont know enough to know if that is true or not. They were waiting for her to wean the puppies before they did.
I never.claimed to be an expert on these titles and I only conveyed what the breeder verbally told me on the phone.
As far as a puppy mill....yes in my opinion they are. They have 27 males dogs 17 female dogs and 12 retired female dogs listed on their site that they breed. They had a total of four litters early this year and that is why they had puppies left over. They had a litter there that were waiting to get old enough to go to owners and they had two or three more due. They had a barn completely full of kennels with multiple dogs in them, a porch with 6-8 cages on the porch with dogs in them, a room with two adult dogs in one cage, two welping boxes with the three dogs I was looking at and another litter, another building with dogs in it and I was told that someone in the family had a group of dogs out of state doing some type of trial.
That's what I saw.
Back to my last post....none of the above info was the reason I didn't get a dog. The fact that they were living in a box full of sawdust without much human contact and no house manners....it was not what I was looking for. It may be a score for someone but not for me.

That is my stand in that earlier statement. If you come back after that part I will no longer debate it with you.

You keep avoiding my questions to you....how come in the past whatever dog someone picks is okay with you until now, if its not what you deem as worthy?
You did tell a guy that it was alright he hunted with a labradoodle. You also told someone else that the best lab is a half american and half English lab. That way you can get the sportyness of an American and the behavior of an English. I can hyperlink that thread if you would like? Now you say people should be selecting dogs with a lot of drive and channel that drive for hunting. And you can't put drive into an English dog...you're a hypocrite.

I think this whole system has gone way away.from the basics where a guy can buy a dog and train it to hunt with him. The dog is his best friend and the dog is loyal to him.

I do thank you for giving me all of those leads. I did check them out. The president responded after I already picked out a pup but he had a good litter he suggested.
The breeders were all out of state and I prefer to see the breeders and the parents before I.purchase and do not want to drive that far.maybe the dog I got will not be as good as the one I could have bought in Tennessee, but I will train him to the best of my abilities. And enjoy doing it.
You have clearly become a snob and out your nose up to anyone that does not follow your lead.
Between you and your hothead buddy in here you make a fantastic duo to drive newbies away from this forum. What a great moderator you are. I'm sure DHC is so proud!
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:33 pm

Glad to know you won't respond. You're right you don't know squat, can't keep facts straight. and have a hard time telling the truth or understanding it.
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Re: English labs

Postby Duck Diver » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:28 am

Section 5. Master Hunter Title (MH). In order
to be recorded as a Master Hunter, a dog must be
registered with the AKC, and must have a record of
having acquired a Qualifying score in the Master Hunting
Test at six (6) AKC-licensed or member club Hunting
Tests, or, in the case of a dog that has been recorded by
AKC as a Senior Hunter, that dog will be recorded as a
Master Hunter after having acquired Qualifying scores
in the Master Hunting Test at five (5) AKC-licensed or
member club Hunting Tests.
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Re: English labs

Postby bakerloo » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:21 am

Labs wrote:Here are my ugly American style labs...sleek, athletic....but wait, what's this? No pointy snout? Don't looke like a sausage with 4 legs? This is pure beauty to me...

Image

Image


Looks like pure beauty to me too. :beer: :clapping:
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Re: English labs

Postby CatSquirrel » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:57 pm

Wow...lol.
I got nuthin....I'm just glad my dog picks up birds.
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Re: English labs

Postby Duck Nasty » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:54 pm

This has been quite entertaining. I by no means am a dog master or master trainer but it is simple. Post FACTS in a debate if you want to be taken credibly.


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Re: English labs

Postby macdaddy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:48 am

Duck Nasty wrote:This has been quite entertaining. I by no means am a dog master or master trainer but it is simple. Post FACTS in a debate if you want to be taken credibly.


Sent from hades


Entertaining indeed. From advice on a breed to a study of human nature.

Expectation > disappointment > blame/finger pointing.

Field trials v. The show ring; i.e: elite WASPs v. hoi polloi. Just get in there & fight the good fight! Hahaha, right. No ethnic group is more stolid or stubborn than WASPs (me paternal granny was Anglo-Saxon. Stubborn, unshakeable? G-damned right.).

My favorite has to be "Copterjaws" for Copterdoc. Heavenly days! The contumely.

I seen many of HTNFSH's posts over the years; I'll bet on his advice.

What I won't do; I will not read this thread in a Home Depot. I may happy pee from laughing. :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:15 am

Sue Ring2.jpg
Sue Ring2.jpg (52.55 KiB) Viewed 186 times
Given some of the comments and pics posted, I have to wonder how many of you actually know what good working conformation is, and how it affects performance. It seems that "beauty" is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

Doc trashes "show" dogs, and then posts videos of the biggest dog show in Britain and comments on the great structure and beauty of the dogs; I can't figure out whether his comments were sarcastic or not????? He also passes on a couple of my questions to him, how come??

Do y'all know that the whole pigador trend in labs started with the importation of British-bred dogs?? Do you also know that attempting to breed the perfect lab by crossing American-breds with British-bred (which is what Milner originally tried to do) is not going to give you the results you seek? Genetics doesn't work like that.

I have posted the photo above before. This dog is a real good example of excellent working conformation, as proven both in the show ring and in the field. How many of you can point out the good and the bad in her working conformation? Do y'all consider her to be "beautiful"?

That's right, I am requesting an honest critique from anyone who wants to comment, feel free to bash away; and I am very interested in your responses.
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Re: English labs

Postby dogyak » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:38 am

Good looking dog IMO . The dog in the pic looks compact with high muscular hindquarters , ample leg length . Doesn't have a head that is a veritable basketball , which is becoming more common these days . Appears to have the solid characteristics I look for , not fat like most show dogs of these days .
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:54 am

macdaddy wrote:
Duck Nasty wrote:This has been quite entertaining. I by no means am a dog master or master trainer but it is simple. Post FACTS in a debate if you want to be taken credibly.


Sent from hades


Entertaining indeed. From advice on a breed to a study of human nature.

Expectation > disappointment > blame/finger pointing.

Field trials v. The show ring; i.e: elite WASPs v. hoi polloi. Just get in there & fight the good fight! Hahaha, right. No ethnic group is more stolid or stubborn than WASPs (me paternal granny was Anglo-Saxon. Stubborn, unshakeable? G-damned right.).

My favorite has to be "Copterjaws" for Copterdoc. Heavenly days! The contumely.

I seen many of HTNFSH's posts over the years; I'll bet on his advice.

What I won't do; I will not read this thread in a Home Depot. I may happy pee from laughing. :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:


macdaddy - don't leak at Home Depot. The restrooms always seem located in inconvenient places. :smile:
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:55 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:I have posted the photo above before. This dog is a real good example of excellent working conformation, as proven both in the show ring and in the field. How many of you can point out the good and the bad in her working conformation? Do y'all consider her to be "beautiful"?


I can't recall. Was that dog a CH and what were the field titles?
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:13 am

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:I have posted the photo above before. This dog is a real good example of excellent working conformation, as proven both in the show ring and in the field. How many of you can point out the good and the bad in her working conformation? Do y'all consider her to be "beautiful"?


I can't recall. Was that dog a CH and what were the field titles?


We already had this discussion, see the July 21 thread on Chessies in the show ring. Care to chime in on the actual topic of this post? Looking forward to your critique.
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Re: English labs

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:26 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:I have posted the photo above before. This dog is a real good example of excellent working conformation, as proven both in the show ring and in the field. How many of you can point out the good and the bad in her working conformation? Do y'all consider her to be "beautiful"?


I can't recall. Was that dog a CH and what were the field titles?


We already had this discussion, see the July 21 thread on Chessies in the show ring. Care to chime in on the actual topic of this post? Looking forward to your critique.




I asked a simple, honest question. Quoted YOU, in the post you made. I think that's relevant, maybe I'm wrong.

You could answer the question (as you accuse Copdoc of not doing) or you can chose to lose my interest by suggesting I go back through 6 month old posts.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:19 am

HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:
Dawnsearlylight wrote:I have posted the photo above before. This dog is a real good example of excellent working conformation, as proven both in the show ring and in the field. How many of you can point out the good and the bad in her working conformation? Do y'all consider her to be "beautiful"?


I can't recall. Was that dog a CH and what were the field titles?


We already had this discussion, see the July 21 thread on Chessies in the show ring. Care to chime in on the actual topic of this post? Looking forward to your critique.


And you're the one that uses the word 'snarky' about others. :lol3:

I asked a simple, honest question. Quoted YOU, in the post you made. I think that's relevant, maybe I'm wrong.

You could answer the question (as you accuse Copdoc of not doing) or you can chose to lose my interest by suggesting I go back through 6 month old posts.


You're getting your shorts in a wad over nothing, there was no snark intended (trust me, if I want to snark, there will be no doubt about my intentions). And I don't know what quote from me you are referring to; if you mean the "proven" thing, that had nothing do do with showing or titles. The "proof" of her working conformation came not from a few minutes in tests or in the show ring, but from training for them and from hunting (this is after all, a hunting dog forum). She worked a commercial preserve Sept. to March, where she did 100-300 duck shoots covering 10 blinds/twenty gunners in the morning, then do upland in the afternoon, with a half hour recovery time between shoots. This was mostly in rotten conditions two days in a row, and she would go when other dogs quit. When she was not doing that, she was hunting every day of waterfowl season and/or on a pheasant preserve, and when she wasn't doing that, she was training and doing pigeon shoots on dairy farms (our two-man record there was 95 birds in one afternoon - in the warm weather). She was hunting at 4 months and had her 2 basic titles at 6-7 months (one of those came at a test where they dropped 20 of 23 older dogs in the first (land) series), so obviously her work started very early, and continued right up until I lost her at 13. Never in all that time was she not sound as a dollar (well, back when a dollar was actually sound!), or did she struggle to keep going under a heavy work load.

Did the fact that she had drive to spare have an influence of all this? Of course it did, but: I have seen too many dogs with poor conformation whose high drive was unable to compensate for their physical faults. Oh, they will go no matter what, but ultimately they suffer for it, physically and/or mentally (back to just because they will doesn't mean they should). This dog would finish the day just as fresh and ready to go as when she started, and that was because her conformation allowed her to work efficiently and without injury.

I regret causing you to lose interest, I was really looking forward to your comments.
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Re: English labs

Postby copterdoc » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:38 am

Dawnsearlylight wrote:.....Doc trashes "show" dogs, and then posts videos of the biggest dog show in Britain and comments on the great structure and beauty of the dogs; I can't figure out whether his comments were sarcastic or not????? He also passes on a couple of my questions to him, how come??
I apologise for the confusion. I should have said Scottish.

I was referring to this video.

The show videos posted after the comment, were to demonstrate the contrast between British/Scottish working dogs, that are selected for breeding based on what they can do, and English show dogs, that are selected for breeding based on what they look like.

The former, continues to produce dogs of sound mind and body, despite the fact that the selection process disregards appearance. Since the dogs have to be able to actually perform, and that ability is what is being selected for, everything else maintains it's balance. Generation after generation.

The latter, makes a mess. It takes a long time, and many generations of selective breeding, to make such a mess. But that's exactly what the show ring eventually does. To every single breed.
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:55 am

Thanks or the clarification Doc, I was beginning to wonder if my eyesight was totally gone. And that is a nice bunch of dogs, apparently the Scots have enough sense to avoid jumping on the pigador bandwagon, even though they they are so close to the source.
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Re: English labs

Postby macdaddy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:21 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:Thanks or the clarification Doc, I was beginning to wonder if my eyesight was totally gone. And that is a nice bunch of dogs, apparently the Scots have enough sense to avoid jumping on the pigador bandwagon, even though they they are so close to the source.


Aye, lad - we are a sensible people. :thumbsup:
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Re: English labs

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:03 pm

dogyak wrote:Good looking dog IMO . The dog in the pic looks compact with high muscular hindquarters , ample leg length . Doesn't have a head that is a veritable basketball , which is becoming more common these days . Appears to have the solid characteristics I look for , not fat like most show dogs of these days .


Dogyak (or anyone else), can you pick out her worst fault?
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