Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

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Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby bvaz8503 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:47 am

Hey guys!
So I am starting the search for my first Boykin. After posting on here previously and getting information, it's now time to start selecting the breeder. My question is this: The Boykin Spaniel Society and others highly suggest a written guarantee for the health of the dog. Is this really necessary and is it a deal breaker? I've only found one breeder that advertises a written guarantee and it is time sensitive (5 years). Is this standard? Is this something that happens during the purchase? What is your experience with Boykins and this sort of thing?

Thanks!
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby sharris » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:44 am

Lots of the more expensive dogs come with a health guarantee. Typically, it requires certain conditions to be met. For example, if you are getting a guarantee against hip dysplasia it may require that OFA radiographs be taken at 24-26 months of age to be valid. If the dog then is diagnosed with hip dysplasia the breeder will usually either give you a new pup or give you some/all of the money back, depending on what was written. For some guarantees they may require you to sterilize, return the dog, or euthanize if it is diagnosed with a medical problem. Each guarantee can be written up any way the breeder wants to do it, so there isn't a single type of guarantee that you'll find. Whether it is a deal breaker depends on you and what your desire is for the pup. It also will be related to the cost of the dog.
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby dogyak » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:15 am

sharris wrote:Lots of the more expensive dogs come with a health guarantee. Typically, it requires certain conditions to be met. For example, if you are getting a guarantee against hip dysplasia it may require that OFA radiographs be taken at 24-26 months of age to be valid. If the dog then is diagnosed with hip dysplasia the breeder will usually either give you a new pup or give you some/all of the money back, depending on what was written. For some guarantees they may require you to sterilize, return the dog, or euthanize if it is diagnosed with a medical problem. Each guarantee can be written up any way the breeder wants to do it, so there isn't a single type of guarantee that you'll find. Whether it is a deal breaker depends on you and what your desire is for the pup. It also will be related to the cost of the dog.

Sharris hit it on the nail :thumbsup:
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby uglymug » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:50 pm

It's your decision, but no health guarantee would be a deal breaker for me. Boykin's have had a lot of trouble with Hip Dysplasia, which they've been making great strides to fix in recent years. I applaud the Boykin community and breeders for that. If they weren't offering a guarantee I'd be very nervous.
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby copterdoc » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:52 pm

A health guarantee doesn't matter at all to me.

If the Breeder did all the standard health testing and has clearances, they did their job to the best of their ability.
I would never hold them financially liable for something that they had no control over.

If the Breeder didn't do all the standard health tests, or didn't get clearances, I wouldn't have bought the pup in the first place.

To me, a health guarantee is moot.
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby Rick Hall » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:57 pm

I'm with copterdoc on this one. If I do my part and insure that the breeder took the reasonable health precautions of gaining proper clearances, that is as close to a guarantee as I want or expect. If I don't, shame on me.
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby krazybronco2 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:49 pm

Copterdoc and rick I hear what u are saying but i know one of the top producing stud boykins has hip problems. Has an ofa number but I have seen them have to work the hip out before running and not sure if this is true but have heard that one other top stud had to get 2-3 different x rays to even get an ofa number. Again not sure if the last part is true or not but that is the word on the street. So I personally with a Boykin I would want a written guarantee.


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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby kkelly » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm

Don't really know too much about health certs so I can't really chime in for that. But a while back I was seriously looking into getting a boykin an found a great breeder in Greenbrier Arkansas called lost branch boykin spaniel kennel. Great guy. Give him a call.


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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby Rick Hall » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:51 am

krazybronco2 wrote:Copterdoc and rick I hear what u are saying but i know one of the top producing stud boykins has hip problems. Has an ofa number but I have seen them have to work the hip out before running and not sure if this is true but have heard that one other top stud had to get 2-3 different x rays to even get an ofa number. Again not sure if the last part is true or not but that is the word on the street. So I personally with a Boykin I would want a written guarantee.


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So you get a written warranty and the pup that's become part of your family by then turns out to have CHD. Are you going to return it to the breeder for a refund or new pup, as is the requirement with most written warranties I've seen? Or are you going to neuter your dog, as the other warranties I've seen require, and keep it so you can experience the expense and misery of sharing its life?

Or...instead of placing your faith in a warranty, are you going to really do your homework and follow the OFA's advice to study vertical pedigree, which will show you the health certifications, or lack thereof, of the siblings of those dogs in Pup's pedigree and presents a more accurate picture of probability than what's in the regular pedigree?

I'm going to do the later, and if I check off on what I find there, the chances of Pup developing CHD should be nil and certainly low enough that I'd not be comfortable holding the breeder responsible if it did occur.
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby krazybronco2 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:30 am

Rick Hall wrote:
krazybronco2 wrote:Copterdoc and rick I hear what u are saying but i know one of the top producing stud boykins has hip problems. Has an ofa number but I have seen them have to work the hip out before running and not sure if this is true but have heard that one other top stud had to get 2-3 different x rays to even get an ofa number. Again not sure if the last part is true or not but that is the word on the street. So I personally with a Boykin I would want a written guarantee.


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So you get a written warranty and the pup that's become part of your family by then turns out to have CHD. Are you going to return it to the breeder for a refund or new pup, as is the requirement with most written warranties I've seen? Or are you going to neuter your dog, as the other warranties I've seen require, and keep it so you can experience the expense and misery of sharing its life?

Or...instead of placing your faith in a warranty, are you going to really do your homework and follow the OFA's advice to study vertical pedigree, which will show you the health certifications, or lack thereof, of the siblings of those dogs in Pup's pedigree and presents a more accurate picture of probability than what's in the regular pedigree?

I'm going to do the later, and if I check off on what I find there, the chances of Pup developing CHD should be nil and certainly low enough that I'd not be comfortable holding the breeder responsible if it did occur.


to answer your question accruately i would need to be in that situation so im not sure what i would do for the first part of your post. My persoal opinion is the breeder has a written guarentee beucase they stand behind the breeding and have nothing to hide they fully expect to have health pups. again my personal opinion on the matter on written guarantee.

also looking at the ofa page really quickly boykins are not getting evaluated like other breeds are now i do understand that the breed has not really been around that long so it might be hard to get line evaluations to compare and get a good history of the breeding you maybe looking at. boykins are #17 on the list

http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:09 am

OFA stats can be a bit misleading. First of all, rads will be compared to other dogs of the same breed and age, not against a standard for all dogs. Secondly, if the rads are obviously indicating HD, there is no reason to send them to OFA. Third, info on cases of HD is not public domain unless the breeder chooses to make it so. Lastly, there have been cases of switching dogs for rads, which is why AKC requires permanent ID before they will publish results.

Rick's advice to study vertical pedigrees is excellent, but it can be difficult to obtain info. How many breeders do you know that require all of their pups be xrayed? It is also helpful to know the rating for each dog, many breeders won't breed a Fair.

As for a dog having multiple rads before receiving OFA clearance, don't be too quick to assume something nefarious. I had one done twice; the first report from OFA came back mild only because of minor sublux. When I looked at the film it was plain that the positioning was off (Chessies can be difficult because of their conformation), so I took the films and OFA report to another vet whose tech was excellent, explained what I was seeing and had the dog positioned correctly, resubmitted, and the report came back Excellent; that is a huge jump in rating. It is a fact that positioning can't make a bad hip look good, but it can sure make a good one look bad.
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Re: Boykin Spaniel Written Guarantees

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:15 am

One more thing: If you are having an intact bitch xrayed, be aware that it needs to be done in the middle of her heat cycle because of the impact of hormones on joint laxity.
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