I have a 7 week old lab and a collar right now would physically weigh him down. About what age would they be big enough to support the weight of a typical E collar? This is more for planning/budget purposes down the road.
I would not recommend that at all. 6 months unless you are a seasoned trainer. The gamble just isn't worth it. You would be very hard pressed to find a pro who uses it prior to that, none the less advocating that amateurs do it that young.TCFarmer said:I trained my current dog with Bill Hillmann's program. She was wearing the collar before 10 weeks. I turned it on and started using it at about 12 weeks.
There is an individual I'm my wife's family that thinks ecollars are for punishment, and that if a dog doesn't naturally behave, they get the collar on full blast. It's terrible. I hate hunting with him because his dogs have never been taught to listen, and he lights them up when they don't obey.i_willie12 said::ditto: I almost wish the ecollar was never invented! Far to many people use them wrong than correctly They are to
re-enforce commands.. Not TEACH! I wouldnt put a collar on a pup till its at least 6-8 months old and has a understanding of the commands Then you use the ecollar to re-enforce those commands Would you expect your 6 month old child to be able to do math?? Nope
I had 3 client dogs last year that had been burned with ecollar for "bad behavior" (barking, jumping, come) Was a long battle to get 2 of them use to just having it on, 1 i completely stopped trying she would just shut down totally!!
I would not hunt with him. That's just my personal code.go get the bird said:There is an individual I'm my wife's family that thinks ecollars are for punishment, and that if a dog doesn't naturally behave, they get the collar on full blast. It's terrible. I hate hunting with him because his dogs have never been taught to listen, and he lights them up when they don't obey.i_willie12 said::ditto: I almost wish the ecollar was never invented! Far to many people use them wrong than correctly They are to
re-enforce commands.. Not TEACH! I wouldnt put a collar on a pup till its at least 6-8 months old and has a understanding of the commands Then you use the ecollar to re-enforce those commands Would you expect your 6 month old child to be able to do math?? Nope
I had 3 client dogs last year that had been burned with ecollar for "bad behavior" (barking, jumping, come) Was a long battle to get 2 of them use to just having it on, 1 i completely stopped trying she would just shut down totally!!
My use of a collar is never anything but a means of pressure, and neither of my collars have been above 30-40%.
I don't think Bill is a pro, but with more High Point Derby dogs than anyone else, the record speaks for itself.Bluesky2012 said:I would not recommend that at all. 6 months unless you are a seasoned trainer. The gamble just isn't worth it. You would be very hard pressed to find a pro who uses it prior to that, none the less advocating that amateurs do it that young.TCFarmer said:I trained my current dog with Bill Hillmann's program. She was wearing the collar before 10 weeks. I turned it on and started using it at about 12 weeks.
"I tell all of my puppy buyers that Bill's video is where they can learn to get their puppy started in the right direction, starting them at home. Every retriever puppy owner should have Bill's video.
Mary Howley CANDLEWOOD KENNELS
Legendary breeder of Labrador Retrievers
This also from Bill's website,TCFarmer said:I don't think Bill is a pro, but with more High Point Derby dogs than anyone else, the record speaks for itself.Bluesky2012 said:I would not recommend that at all. 6 months unless you are a seasoned trainer. The gamble just isn't worth it. You would be very hard pressed to find a pro who uses it prior to that, none the less advocating that amateurs do it that young.TCFarmer said:I trained my current dog with Bill Hillmann's program. She was wearing the collar before 10 weeks. I turned it on and started using it at about 12 weeks.
There was a time when people would have said those of you putting a collar on at 6 months were going to ruin the dog.
From Bill's website.
"I tell all of my puppy buyers that Bill's video is where they can learn to get their puppy started in the right direction, starting them at home. Every retriever puppy owner should have Bill's video.
Mary Howley CANDLEWOOD KENNELS
Legendary breeder of Labrador Retrievers
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?jtowne said:Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?Bluesky2012 said:I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?jtowne said:Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.jtowne said:Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?Bluesky2012 said:I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?jtowne said:Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I know of others but im not going to list every dog I know of that was cc and ff before 6 months. Hillman uses the collar before 6 months. The guy i train with has it on his dog at 15 weeks.Bluesky2012 said:One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.jtowne said:Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?Bluesky2012 said:I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?jtowne said:Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.
Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
I have trained a few dogs with pros, and have spent enough time around and researching it to know the general consensus of how and when to train certain tasks, and as to why certain things are done within the progression. Again, the VAST majority of pros do not do what you are suggesting, and even fewer suggest an amateur do it. You know this is true.jtowne said:I know of others but im not going to list every dog I know of that was cc and ff before 6 months. Hillman uses the collar before 6 months. The guy i train with has it on his dog at 15 weeks.Bluesky2012 said:One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.jtowne said:Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?Bluesky2012 said:I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?jtowne said:Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.
Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
Have you trained many dogs? Are you a pro? Have you titled many dogs? I'm just trying to figure out your background
I'm not saying it's right or wrong I could careless what he does. But I was just proving a point that some very successful people have done it successful. I just didn't like you telling me not to put a collar that is off on the pup while training because I was going to start using the collar early. You have never trained with me or have seen my dogs run. You don't know how much I use the collar.Bluesky2012 said:I have trained a few dogs with pros, and have spent enough time around and researching it to know the general consensus of how and when to train certain tasks, and as to why certain things are done within the progression. Again, the VAST majority of pros do not do what you are suggesting, and even fewer suggest an amateur do it. You know this is true.jtowne said:I know of others but im not going to list every dog I know of that was cc and ff before 6 months. Hillman uses the collar before 6 months. The guy i train with has it on his dog at 15 weeks.Bluesky2012 said:One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.jtowne said:Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?Bluesky2012 said:I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?jtowne said:Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks oldBluesky2012 said:I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.jtowne said:I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.
Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
Have you trained many dogs? Are you a pro? Have you titled many dogs? I'm just trying to figure out your background
Why would you suggest an amateur go against the means that the vast majority hold consensus on as the best means to go forward? They all say that the risk doesn't out weigh the reward. And what do you suggest is the reward that's even worth the risk instead of just waiting two months and letting them mature more? You still haven't answered my previous posts questions.
:ditto: THIS!!!!!!!! training dogs isnt something you learn on the internet!! People have become so conditioned to "just jump online and figure it out... Ask a question and get your answer..." They dont know what to do we someone says cant help you without seeing it, especially when the person asking the question really doesnt know what they are talking about!HNTFSH said:Just saying "Hillman does "this and that" at a certain age doesn't really do justice to his approach and intent. It could well be misleading to the lazy reader. That's why the Internet isn't the place to learn this stuff.