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What is the youngest age for a E collar?

2K views 24 replies 14 participants last post by  i_willie12 
#1 ·
I have a 7 week old lab and a collar right now would physically weigh him down. About what age would they be big enough to support the weight of a typical E collar? This is more for planning/budget purposes down the road.
 
#3 ·
You absolutely don't need FF finished to use an e-collar. Not sure where people get this.

4-6 months. Even graham introduces e-collar on 4 month old dogs (approximate , when they are ready) to the here command.

I think more training programs aim for around 6 months (when the dog is ready...)

I had several recommendations to have the dog wear the collar turned off for 1-2 weeks prior to using it.
 
#5 ·
TCFarmer said:
I trained my current dog with Bill Hillmann's program. She was wearing the collar before 10 weeks. I turned it on and started using it at about 12 weeks.
I would not recommend that at all. 6 months unless you are a seasoned trainer. The gamble just isn't worth it. You would be very hard pressed to find a pro who uses it prior to that, none the less advocating that amateurs do it that young.
 
#6 ·
:ditto: I almost wish the ecollar was never invented! Far to many people use them wrong than correctly They are to
re-enforce commands.. Not TEACH! I wouldnt put a collar on a pup till its at least 6-8 months old and has a understanding of the commands Then you use the ecollar to re-enforce those commands Would you expect your 6 month old child to be able to do math?? Nope

I had 3 client dogs last year that had been burned with ecollar for "bad behavior" (barking, jumping, come) Was a long battle to get 2 of them use to just having it on, 1 i completely stopped trying she would just shut down totally!!
 
#7 ·
i_willie12 said:
:ditto: I almost wish the ecollar was never invented! Far to many people use them wrong than correctly They are to
re-enforce commands.. Not TEACH! I wouldnt put a collar on a pup till its at least 6-8 months old and has a understanding of the commands Then you use the ecollar to re-enforce those commands Would you expect your 6 month old child to be able to do math?? Nope

I had 3 client dogs last year that had been burned with ecollar for "bad behavior" (barking, jumping, come) Was a long battle to get 2 of them use to just having it on, 1 i completely stopped trying she would just shut down totally!!
There is an individual I'm my wife's family that thinks ecollars are for punishment, and that if a dog doesn't naturally behave, they get the collar on full blast. It's terrible. I hate hunting with him because his dogs have never been taught to listen, and he lights them up when they don't obey.

My use of a collar is never anything but a means of pressure, and neither of my collars have been above 30-40%.
 
#8 ·
go get the bird said:
i_willie12 said:
:ditto: I almost wish the ecollar was never invented! Far to many people use them wrong than correctly They are to
re-enforce commands.. Not TEACH! I wouldnt put a collar on a pup till its at least 6-8 months old and has a understanding of the commands Then you use the ecollar to re-enforce those commands Would you expect your 6 month old child to be able to do math?? Nope

I had 3 client dogs last year that had been burned with ecollar for "bad behavior" (barking, jumping, come) Was a long battle to get 2 of them use to just having it on, 1 i completely stopped trying she would just shut down totally!!
There is an individual I'm my wife's family that thinks ecollars are for punishment, and that if a dog doesn't naturally behave, they get the collar on full blast. It's terrible. I hate hunting with him because his dogs have never been taught to listen, and he lights them up when they don't obey.

My use of a collar is never anything but a means of pressure, and neither of my collars have been above 30-40%.
I would not hunt with him. That's just my personal code.
 
#9 ·
Bluesky2012 said:
TCFarmer said:
I trained my current dog with Bill Hillmann's program. She was wearing the collar before 10 weeks. I turned it on and started using it at about 12 weeks.
I would not recommend that at all. 6 months unless you are a seasoned trainer. The gamble just isn't worth it. You would be very hard pressed to find a pro who uses it prior to that, none the less advocating that amateurs do it that young.
I don't think Bill is a pro, but with more High Point Derby dogs than anyone else, the record speaks for itself.

There was a time when people would have said those of you putting a collar on at 6 months were going to ruin the dog.

From Bill's website.

"I tell all of my puppy buyers that Bill's video is where they can learn to get their puppy started in the right direction, starting them at home. Every retriever puppy owner should have Bill's video.
Mary Howley CANDLEWOOD KENNELS
Legendary breeder of Labrador Retrievers
 
#10 ·
TCFarmer said:
Bluesky2012 said:
TCFarmer said:
I trained my current dog with Bill Hillmann's program. She was wearing the collar before 10 weeks. I turned it on and started using it at about 12 weeks.
I would not recommend that at all. 6 months unless you are a seasoned trainer. The gamble just isn't worth it. You would be very hard pressed to find a pro who uses it prior to that, none the less advocating that amateurs do it that young.
I don't think Bill is a pro, but with more High Point Derby dogs than anyone else, the record speaks for itself.

There was a time when people would have said those of you putting a collar on at 6 months were going to ruin the dog.

From Bill's website.

"I tell all of my puppy buyers that Bill's video is where they can learn to get their puppy started in the right direction, starting them at home. Every retriever puppy owner should have Bill's video.
Mary Howley CANDLEWOOD KENNELS
Legendary breeder of Labrador Retrievers
This also from Bill's website,
In this DVD, Bill shows 28 days of real time training sessions with a puppy over a time span of 2 ! months The puppy is 11 weeks old at the start. At the end of 28 days of training the puppy is 5 ! months old (a time span of 11 weeks). In other words, there are many days which the puppy is not formally trained. Most importantly, the pup during these days gets many sessions of house time and one-on-one walks with Bill or family members.
 
#11 ·
As a total noob trainer I waited on the collar until 9 months. It was a good decision to wait for me, but it nearly instantly solved a lot of problems we had been having with basic stuff like getting in the truck. Also, if you're going to hunt a dog young, and you're new to training, I wouldn't recommend using the collar while hunting for a good long while. Sometimes bird fever can get in the way of good sense. I remember her first week on the collar was the last week of goose. She bolted after a shot and was gone while a goose floated down river towards some rapids. I hit the button and called for her, and hit the button some more while running down river preparing to get in at the head of the whitewater rapid. Then I realized that the goose had started floating sideways and 20 seconds later she pushed it onto an ice shelf from all the way underneath the bird with her feet on the river bottom and her head barely above water. It looked bigger than she was. Perspective is everything.

Fast forward to today at 17 months, I use it at a low level a few times an outing when she forgets what her job is and needs a command a second time. Sometimes I feel like she didn't hear my quiet command over the ambient noise. I almost always give her the benefit of the doubt in those cases. (We sneak a cattail slough almost daily and I can usually whisper commands.) When I really cranked up the juice for training was working on keeping her steady to flush. I needed more amp to get her attention when birds were flushing or rabbits were running. Now she almost always stops on a verbal, and I always keep the buzzer on a low setting.
 
#12 ·
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
 
#13 ·
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
 
#14 ·
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
 
#15 ·
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?
 
#16 ·
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?
Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?
 
#17 ·
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?
Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?
One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.

There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.

Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
 
#18 ·
There is no real set age for a collar. It has to do with the understanding and compliance of each command taught. If the docg does a command perfect each and every time at 9 months of age then he is ready to start overlaying that command with the collar.

Most don't begin formal obedience until 6 months. Sometime after 6 months and when the dog full understands and complies each and every time to each command. You collar condition to each command. Not just one.

As others said its not a teaching tool. Most people should not own an e collar.
 
#19 ·
For the love of God, do not put an e-collar on a puppy that young!!!! Weight shouldn't even be an issue when thinking about when to start using an e-collar!

e-collars are to reinforce commands he dog already know at a distance--that is their only use!! You have a long way to go to get to that point.
 
#20 ·
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?
Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?
One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.

There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.

Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
I know of others but im not going to list every dog I know of that was cc and ff before 6 months. Hillman uses the collar before 6 months. The guy i train with has it on his dog at 15 weeks.
Have you trained many dogs? Are you a pro? Have you titled many dogs? I'm just trying to figure out your background
 
#21 ·
To the OP:
I generally put a deactivated e-collar on a pup at about 3-4 months. This is simply to get them used to the weight and learn that an e-collar means it's time to train. (in other words, the collar ='s fun) The transmitter never leaves the truck.

Since FF has also been mentioned in this thread, I prefer to wait until all of their adult teeth are in so they can get a good grip on the forcing object.

My general process is to work on light OB with treats at first, then layer over the OB while on lead with a choke or pinch collar, then add a heeling stick into the next layer of OB. During this time I'm also throwing easy marks to build momentum and stretch the puppy out.

Introducing an activated e-collar depends on the dog's level of maturity and may come before or after FF. Usually after for me, although I may collar condition a puppy to here and sit first in the case of a willful pup.

YMMV
 
#22 ·
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?
Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?
One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.

There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.

Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
I know of others but im not going to list every dog I know of that was cc and ff before 6 months. Hillman uses the collar before 6 months. The guy i train with has it on his dog at 15 weeks.
Have you trained many dogs? Are you a pro? Have you titled many dogs? I'm just trying to figure out your background
I have trained a few dogs with pros, and have spent enough time around and researching it to know the general consensus of how and when to train certain tasks, and as to why certain things are done within the progression. Again, the VAST majority of pros do not do what you are suggesting, and even fewer suggest an amateur do it. You know this is true.

Why would you suggest an amateur go against the means that the vast majority hold consensus on as the best means to go forward? They all say that the risk doesn't out weigh the reward. And what do you suggest is the reward that's even worth the risk instead of just waiting two months and letting them mature more? You still haven't answered my previous posts questions.
 
#23 ·
Most common motivation I have seen for early Force Training is financial gain, most often driven by Breeders of their own stock. Claimings title at XX months, first dog to get an ABC at this age, etc. The marketing side is obviously leading Joe Blow to believe if that Stud or Bitch can get XYZ at such a young age, my pup will be great too. There's always ego but think that plays less.

I can't think of a Field Trial amateur I know that CC's or FF's at that young an age.

That said, wear and use are two different things. No harm sticking a collar on a pup. Most knowledgeable trainers will NOT use it until the pup is ready. A newbie? Lord only knows regardless of age what he'll do. We all know the stories, much less questions.

Hillman has introduced much over the last few years. Just saying "Hillman does "this and that" at a certain age doesn't really do justice to his approach and intent. It could well be misleading to the lazy reader. That's why the Internet isn't the place to learn this stuff.
 
#24 ·
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
Bluesky2012 said:
jtowne said:
I am going to let the pup start wearing the collar at 4 months I won't use it until obedience is complete
I'd settle down there. Your going to think obedience is complete and want to start using the collar early because it is there. Again, very VERY few pros would advocate starting to use a collar prior to about 7 months, and that is with a pro who is training hard, correctly, and daily. Again, slower is better. Seriously.
Thanks for the advice but I have had good luck doing it my way. I am pretty strict on obedience and I train as much as most pros and my dogs get 2 sessions a day. Some pros are ff dogs at 4 months some are not doing ear pinch an going right to collar fetch. More then one way to skin a cat. I am not a big collar person unlike to train with attrition and repeat stuff. Hillman starts in the collar at like 14 - 16 weeks old
I honestly want to know a pro that force fetches at 4 months, none the less endorses others to do it at that age. Why on the world would you want to do it at that age and what could it possibly gain you?
Clayton Evans blue sky retrievers in Washington has. I have heard of others. Ammo JAMed her first derby at 6 moths old. Do you think she was cc or ff before 6 months?
One dog and one pro. Not many especially compared to the thousands who wait until a better age. I guarantee for a dog to be CC and FF-ed prior to 6 months requires an exceptional dog, and a trainer who is willing to gamble on washing out a dog too early solely for the sake of saying they accomplished that task at 4-6 months.

There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, but the vast majority of those ways are stupid. If a proven method works, and is guaranteed a much higher chance of being successful compared to other methods that go against conventional wisdom, then either you are trying a different method solely to prove a point and don't mind about the increased odds of adverse results, or you are just too hard headed to realize the rationale behind the "why" portion of training and age requirements.

Please tell me what benefit is gained in collar conditioning and force fetching a dog at that age? If it is so beneficial, then why can you only think of two examples as compared to the thousands who do not follow that method.
I know of others but im not going to list every dog I know of that was cc and ff before 6 months. Hillman uses the collar before 6 months. The guy i train with has it on his dog at 15 weeks.
Have you trained many dogs? Are you a pro? Have you titled many dogs? I'm just trying to figure out your background
I have trained a few dogs with pros, and have spent enough time around and researching it to know the general consensus of how and when to train certain tasks, and as to why certain things are done within the progression. Again, the VAST majority of pros do not do what you are suggesting, and even fewer suggest an amateur do it. You know this is true.

Why would you suggest an amateur go against the means that the vast majority hold consensus on as the best means to go forward? They all say that the risk doesn't out weigh the reward. And what do you suggest is the reward that's even worth the risk instead of just waiting two months and letting them mature more? You still haven't answered my previous posts questions.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong I could careless what he does. But I was just proving a point that some very successful people have done it successful. I just didn't like you telling me not to put a collar that is off on the pup while training because I was going to start using the collar early. You have never trained with me or have seen my dogs run. You don't know how much I use the collar.

I can tell you that I am sure the collar washed out more dogs over 6 months then under 6 months. If the collar is not used right it can mess up any dog at any age.
 
#25 ·
HNTFSH said:
Just saying "Hillman does "this and that" at a certain age doesn't really do justice to his approach and intent. It could well be misleading to the lazy reader. That's why the Internet isn't the place to learn this stuff.
:ditto: THIS!!!!!!!! training dogs isnt something you learn on the internet!! People have become so conditioned to "just jump online and figure it out... Ask a question and get your answer..." They dont know what to do we someone says cant help you without seeing it, especially when the person asking the question really doesnt know what they are talking about!
You can ask very pointed questions, ask for ideas, bounch new ideas around... But how do i fix this.... Who knows most of the time! We are just throwing darts at the wall
 
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