Chocolate lab force fetch issue

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Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:34 am

Hello all, I'm new to the site
I have a 1 year old chocolate lab that was recently trained and forced fetched. The trainer said he was hard to force fetch and said she had to use 2 collars to do it as well as toe pinch method. The trainer went through a demonstration with me when I picked him up with an ecollar on and for the most part he did well, when he didn't respond to a command she shocked him, but also used praise too. Well once I got him home, the dog wouldn't work for me with the ecollar. He wouldn't fetch when I asked him too, I started with low intensity of a one with no result and gradually increased to no avail. He would either run away from me or lay down or run into his kennel. However when live birds are used he loves it, but I just can't get him to do bumper retrieval. Anyone have any ideas on getting him to get bumpers. I think his force fetch training was hard on him and he saw it as a negative thing anytime bumpers are used.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:47 am

Puddle Scum - there's a lot going on here that ranges from the trainer, to you, to the dog.

What has your trainer said about this? Did she ever have you watch the forced fetch results without an ecollar? How long was the dog there? Where'd you come by the trainer?
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:24 pm

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I bet there is a lot going on. I initially bought the dog as a pup from a reputable chocolate lab kennel. Good blood lines. The father a master hunter. In my world I wanted to have a good duck hunting retriever, so I took him at 8 weeks old to a trainer that offered puppy school. He had been with the trainer for almost 10 months. Me visiting monthly and him coming home once last fall for 2 weeks. The trainer said he is a very good hunter. He likes birds, and goes into the thick stuff with out hesitation. But she said he is stubborn. It took her forever to force fetch him. The trainer is going to get a video back to me on what to do, but have yet to receive it. His demeanor when I present a bumper he kind of slumps down a little and turns his head as if not interested. He seems very nervy too, I'm worried about loud noises around him. He kind of jumps a little. She used a starter pistol in front of him. I know she did a lot of obedience with him to the point where he doesn't bark or whine any more, but wonder if any of that as well as a tough force fetch has imprinted negatively on him. I don't know. I definitely want to get him to be a great retriever yet.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby sgk » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:26 pm

Call your trainer and ask to bring the dog back for a day so the trainer can work with you AND the dog.
Make sure that the dog is doing everything for you that it does for them and, if it doesn't, ask the trainer why.
Once you get the dog working for you at the training facility, ask the trainer to accompany you off site or to a different area of their property, and work the dog until it will perform every task you paid for.
Any trainer worth the name will gladly assure that your dog is doing what you paid them for.
Of course, you will have to pay for this extra time, but I assume you already have several hundred dollars into this training.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby dogyak » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:05 pm

if a pro had your dog for 10 months since 8 wk's . Then IMHO , he should be a jammed up dog on singles both water and land . Gun condition and e-Collar condition . Double marks and maybe simple cast hand signals included . But everything the average hunter needs . If the dog was a washout , he or she would have known after 4 months for one . I don't understand why they didn't have you go thru the routine in the field with the pup , and condition you on how to work with your buddy . Good pro's always recommend that before the pup leaves . Something isn't right here , don't make sense to me . :huh:
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:04 pm

The trainer went through 45 minutes worth of training the day I picked him up. Luckily I videotaped most it. The dog I thought did ok for being one years old. He is not master hunter yet, he is just a pup, but yes he needs understand his mistakes. I just took him out and put the ecollar on and forced him to a pile, initially he did not go, so I shocked him at a one and still he wouldn't go. Then I did 2 continuous and he went. After that he cooperated and did everything I asked. I praised him when he did well. He wanted to break on a retrieve and I didn't shock him. I just jerked his collar up and brought him back and positioned him to sit. I picked the bumper up myself and then recasted it and it worked. I don't know a different dog today, I hope I can continue his progress. I only worked him for 10-15 minutes as I wanted to end on a good note. But maybe I just needed to know how to work the ecollar compared to her. Garmin 550 pro. Same one trainer had. He did both upland and water retrieves. He just started learning doubles now that he is forced fetched. Thanks for all the help, hope positive work I had today continues. Although I still need to work gun noise into his routine. She used just a real weak sounding starter pistol and she only used it in front of him, so I definitely will need help on his gun work yet
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Flatsmaster23 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:47 pm

I'm not a expert like some on here but I believe ur under estimating what a 10 month old with that much training should be capable of .... trainer should have already shot live flyers and u should have a dog that is capable of at the minimum to leave when sent and return to hand on easy marks on land and water .... unless I misread something ... ur now force to pile and this dog hasn't had a bird shot in front of it ????


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:18 pm

Flatsmaster23 wrote:I'm not a expert like some on here but I believe ur under estimating what a 10 month old with that much training should be capable of .... trainer should have already shot live flyers and u should have a dog that is capable of at the minimum to leave when sent and return to hand on easy marks on land and water .... unless I misread something ... ur now force to pile and this dog hasn't had a bird shot in front of it ????


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I'm confused too on what's going on, and OP, I think you're pretty confused too. I'd lay off with the e-collar and trying to FTP till YOU learn what to do. You're likely going to cause more issues before you even know what issues your dog may or may not have.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby HNTFSH » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:22 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:
Flatsmaster23 wrote:I'm not a expert like some on here but I believe ur under estimating what a 10 month old with that much training should be capable of .... trainer should have already shot live flyers and u should have a dog that is capable of at the minimum to leave when sent and return to hand on easy marks on land and water .... unless I misread something ... ur now force to pile and this dog hasn't had a bird shot in front of it ????


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I'm confused too on what's going on, and OP, I think you're pretty confused too. I'd lay off with the e-collar and trying to FTP till YOU learn what to do. You're likely going to cause more issues before you even know what issues your dog may or may not have.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby James Seibel » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:50 pm

Puddle scum wrote:Thanks for the reply. Yeah I bet there is a lot going on. I initially bought the dog as a pup from a reputable chocolate lab kennel. Good blood lines. The father a master hunter. In my world I wanted to have a good duck hunting retriever, so I took him at 8 weeks old to a trainer that offered puppy school. He had been with the trainer for almost 10 months. Me visiting monthly and him coming home once last fall for 2 weeks. The trainer said he is a very good hunter. He likes birds, and goes into the thick stuff with out hesitation. But she said he is stubborn. It took her forever to force fetch him. The trainer is going to get a video back to me on what to do, but have yet to receive it. His demeanor when I present a bumper he kind of slumps down a little and turns his head as if not interested. He seems very nervy too, I'm worried about loud noises around him. He kind of jumps a little. She used a starter pistol in front of him. I know she did a lot of obedience with him to the point where he doesn't bark or whine any more, but wonder if any of that as well as a tough force fetch has imprinted negatively on him. I don't know. I definitely want to get him to be a great retriever yet.

If I am understanding you correctly ? This is NOT your dog ! This is your trainers dog , I would expect what you think is your dog to need some time to get to know his new home and handler . You may think he is your dog , but if the dog was with the trainer 10 months, and only with you one time two weeks , then I would recommend you back off forcing the dog to any thing or expecting to much. Try and make his field work fun and give the dog time to really adjust . I would also advise you buy a DVD by any of the field trial pros and learn how to train a dog from A-Z . Even if you do not use what you see from the DVD it should help you . A Good thing would find a Retriever club or hook up with others that train for hunting and hunt test. I can give you examples of why I think what i think , but unless I saw your dog and you training together I really am in the fog .

good luck !
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:42 pm

Thanks james,
I think that is great advice. Your right I never really thought of it that way. I have only had him back for a week now, and like I said he did really well today. I guess baby steps until he is used to me and his surroundings.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:13 pm

Puddle scum wrote:Thanks james,
I think that is great advice. Your right I never really thought of it that way. I have only had him back for a week now, and like I said he did really well today. I guess baby steps until he is used to me and his surroundings.


Baby steps for you would be just taking him for walks. You still need to learn to actually train a dog, and meet up with your trainer.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby dogyak » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:25 pm

Puddle scum wrote:The trainer went through 45 minutes worth of training the day I picked him up. Luckily I videotaped most it. The dog I thought did ok for being one years old. He is not master hunter yet, he is just a pup, but yes he needs understand his mistakes. I just took him out and put the ecollar on and forced him to a pile, initially he did not go, so I shocked him at a one and still he wouldn't go. Then I did 2 continuous and he went. After that he cooperated and did everything I asked. I praised him when he did well. He wanted to break on a retrieve and I didn't shock him. I just jerked his collar up and brought him back and positioned him to sit. I picked the bumper up myself and then recasted it and it worked. I don't know a different dog today, I hope I can continue his progress. I only worked him for 10-15 minutes as I wanted to end on a good note. But maybe I just needed to know how to work the ecollar compared to her. Garmin 550 pro. Same one trainer had. He did both upland and water retrieves. He just started learning doubles now that he is forced fetched. Thanks for all the help, hope positive work I had today continues. Although I still need to work gun noise into his routine. She used just a real weak sounding starter pistol and she only used it in front of him, so I definitely will need help on his gun work yet

Now I'm really confused . This trainer had your dog for 10 month's since the age of 8 wk's . So , he just had been FF not long ago . And she really didn't have the proper equipment to gun trained , and you're really having to do this now . :huh: . Your dog would have gone thru FF around 6 to 7 months after adult canines are in . Even if it took 1 and a half months , you're pup should have been been properly gun trained . Something very wrong here
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Yes the trainer said she shot guns around him, but I notice he is very jumpy to noises. I'm just being honest from what I have seen when I had him for 2 weeks last fall and just this last week. If a sudden noise happens behind him he kind of ducks down, he is a little nervy. I asked her about it last fall and she said he does fine with the noise in front of him, so yeah I'm worried about shooting a gun next to him right now. Again when I picked him up last week she used a starter pistol in front of him on a real duck and he did fine, but it wasn't a loud bang behind him. She told me to just use a starter pistol for now only on retrieves. I have a video of the day I got him, wish I could post it, but it is 30 minutes and this site wouldn't let me.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby ohio mike » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:52 pm

WOW just WOW! :eek: James is right the dog doesn't know you from diddly. Give him 2 weeks of happy,happy,happy. Then put the collar in the box and start with simple fun bumpers and go from there. Get a book or DVD and study it for the two weeks. I personally think you and the dog were used and abused. I don't know nearly as much as many on this forum,but this stinks. You did everything right to try to ensure you had a well trained gundog (breeding,trainer etc) and in my humble opinion you got ripped off by a trainer who doesn't know or care what their doing. Without names or towns may I inquire what state your in?
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Dakota Creek » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:56 am

James Seibel wrote:If I am understanding you correctly ? This is NOT your dog ! This is your trainers dog , I would expect what you think is your dog to need some time to get to know his new home and handler . You may think he is your dog , but if the dog was with the trainer 10 months, and only with you one time two weeks , then I would recommend you back off forcing the dog to any thing or expecting to much. Try and make his field work fun and give the dog time to really adjust!


Exactly my first thoughts as well!
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby ohio mike » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:40 am

Nothing against the op but a newbie with a collar just kinda freaks me out. Kinda like a new driver with a Vette. Especially when what they know came from someone who appears to not to have a clue.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:41 am

Training issues aside, I can't get past the fact that sending a pup that hasn't even had it's full series of vaccinations yet to a training kennel is not the best idea. That alone would cause me to question the trainer's motivation and ability. Maybe it's just me . . . . . :huh:

OP, your posts seem to indicate lots of red flags re: what was done with the pup. The trainer should have given you some of the info posted here re: how to help the pup adjust to the sea change in his life and what to expect when you got him home. The fact that she described the pup as "stubborn" bothers me, as does the apparent gun-shyness (He's okay as long as the shot is in front of him? When you first introduce the gun, where the hell else would it be?) Look at other trainers' websites to get an idea of where your pup should be after 10 months, then take the dog back to the trainer and have her address your questions, show you exactly how she did things, and have you run the dog. Hopefully this is just a communication problem and some hands-on work will help.

In the meantime, step away from the ecollar until you know what the hell you are supposed to be doing with it.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:53 am

I understand (though I wouldn't spend money on) a puppy course short term with a pro. I think there is limited return on training a young puppy. Woulda been much better to just pay for 10 months from the ages of 6-16 months.

That being said, OP who is this "pro"? PM it to some people on here and get their opinions.

Maybe the dog just hasn't re-acclimated to you (which it very well could be), or maybe you got scammed. There are plenty of shady or just crappy "pros" out there.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:07 am

Yeah lots to learn, no doubt. I'm not a trainer but I don't zap my dog for every mistake. I did go through a lot of this with my trainer already, now it's my turn to reinforce things. I didn't write a bible narrative to this post about everything. So some here need to ease up on your guessing. The dog was taken to the vet by the trainer, that was included. I think James offered great advice. I already ordered some DVD stuff too. I'm in frequent contact with my trainer. I just came here to seek other advice, not to have a trainer assumption game or me as some shock happy idiot. I read everybody's post and thanks for taking the time to weigh in, but don't flat out assume either, if you have a question ask it. I'm not one to point fingers at trainers. I think every dog is different in a way too. Obviously I care about my dog and hope he becomes what I am looking for
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby dogyak » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:34 am

Puddle scum wrote:Yeah lots to learn, no doubt. I'm not a trainer but I don't zap my dog for every mistake. I did go through a lot of this with my trainer already, now it's my turn to reinforce things. I didn't write a bible narrative to this post about everything. So some here need to ease up on your guessing. The dog was taken to the vet by the trainer, that was included. I think James offered great advice. I already ordered some DVD stuff too. I'm in frequent contact with my trainer. I just came here to seek other advice, not to have a trainer assumption game or me as some shock happy idiot. I read everybody's post and thanks for taking the time to weigh in, but don't flat out assume either, if you have a question ask it. I'm not one to point fingers at trainers. I think every dog is different in a way too. Obviously I care about my dog and hope he becomes what I am looking for

Hey , the day you joined DHC , you asked a question about the training of your dog . If you had total confidence of the trainer in question , then you wouldn't be here asking to begin with . Many sound trainers here weigh in on this , and gave you've a response . But the one thing that most agreed on , your dog isn't nowhere where it should be after 10 months . But then again , you don't have confidence , and I really don't like the protocol of the training you outline from my guess point from the trainer in question . Don't get your feelings hurt , if you didn't want to hear a neg response , then don't post . Find another trainer or join a hunting retriever club would be your best bet . Good luck
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:47 am

I am open to advice that is why I'm here. Just don't assume. Ask me a question if you need more info, that helps. I didn't write a complete narrative, so I know that doesn't help either, but I don't want to be on my computer for 24/7 either. Some good advice here so far
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:06 pm

Puddle scum wrote:I am open to advice that is why I'm here. Just don't assume. Ask me a question if you need more info, that helps. I didn't write a complete narrative, so I know that doesn't help either, but I don't want to be on my computer for 24/7 either. Some good advice here so far


The assumptions made are from the collective experiences of a lot of very sound pros and amateurs who have seen posts VERY similar to this come up before.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:23 pm

Oh I agree I bet there are some phenomenal trainers posting here. And I value there input. I understand you might need more info on my dog, so ask me I get it. I have a video I would love to upload. Again thanks to everyone taking the time to read and help. The history of my dog, me, and my trainor is vital for you to input. But I have a dog now and have to move forward. Obviously if mistakes were made in the past then they are key to future events as well. For those saying I'm shocking like a newbie with a corvette or my Trainor never gave vaccinations, those are not helpful and are wrong as well. Let's keep it real. Thanks
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:24 pm

Well generally speaking someone who refers to it as "shocking" doesn't know enough to adequately use a collar.


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