Chocolate lab force fetch issue

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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Really Bluesky, I didn't come on this site to play semantics. I get it. It is a correction collar to be used only in the appropriate situation. Really are you here to help or play footsie. Because right now your about as useful as some members of our United States Congress. Speak double talk and never accomplish anything
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby jng1022 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:46 pm

He was just pointing out that your vernacular screams newbie, and it does, loud and clear. You have admitted as much essentially and are asking for help so it doesn't have to be a bad thing, we were all newbies once. The problem is you do have the dog and you are attempting to train it, or pick up where the the trainer left off, and you are woefully behind in your understanding of what needs to be done and how to accomplish it. People are offering sound advice for you to back off, get your bearings, lay off the collar, and learn a little first. Just because you don't like the delivery of the message doesn't mean it isn't accurate. Understand that most are offering this advice out of consideration for the dog, and to help you not create a bunch more problems that are going to be really hard to fix.

James definitely had a cogent point about this dog not knowing you, and you were right to listen to that advice.

The other advice you have gotten is good as well. Get a program and learn it and follow it. Don't start FTP or any other force training until you have a plan and an understanding of the plan.

Those questioning the training and being confused are rightfully so. A year old dog with 10 months of training, albeit 4 of those months just basic OB given the age of the pup, would "typically" be further along than your pup. No assumptions needed, just general knowledge by those who have been around this for a while. Take that fwiw. It may be something you want to consider, it may not.

Lastly what you describe the dog doing when presenting the bumper is classic avoidance. Right after true completion of force fetch the dog should be readily lunging for the bumper. It sounds like, and I"m going to have to make an assumption here because none of us have seen the dog, is that it wasn't properly FF, a common issue. Based on the other limited information given about the training, I think that could very well be the case.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Puddle scum » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:08 pm

Now finally a decent response, however I agreed with the backing and ecollar already prior until he settles in. I don't know this trainer maybe didn't spend tons of time with him. She usually has 20 dogs on site. So I imagine less learning time over that period too. Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with most of what you say
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby dogyak » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:52 pm

It has nothing to do with how many dogs are on the site , and your pup wasn't properly FF . If the command was given , he would have gotten the object with or without collar , period . For the record , Dawn never said your trainer didn't get your pup the puppy shots . You kind of added that yourself . Heck , Stephen Durrence has over 60 dogs at his kennels , and gets the job done . It's no assumption , you were short change by your trainer . As I recommend , either find a new trainer or join a retriever club . You need someone to mentor you , those's DVD's don't show you what to do with many issues that might arise . You yourself needs to be trained .
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:55 pm

Puddle scum wrote:Now finally a decent response, however I agreed with the backing and ecollar already prior until he settles in. I don't know this trainer maybe didn't spend tons of time with him. She usually has 20 dogs on site. So I imagine less learning time over that period too. Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with most of what you say


And again, you don't seem to know how a trainer even operates. 20 dogs is pretty normal for a pro. Each dog gets maybe 2 set ups per day. That's normal. It is not a question of dogs on the pros truck. It is a question of "is the pro actually good" and "is the dog you sent actually able to do the work requested".

You don't know what you don't know. I doubt you know the difference between direct vs indirect pressure, de-bugging, hot spots, etc.

All those terms are important in force fetch and into force to pile. If you start wearing on the dog with the e-collar improperly doing any force work, and you don't understand those concepts, you can cause serious issues that aren't as simple as "dog didn't come to me when I called his name".

Again, you don't know what you don't know, so you don't even understand what I was getting at. Sure you can get your panties in a wad because you are likely mad about your entire situation (and fairly so, I'd likely be mad too), but we are in here providing you sound advice.

I think you may have gotten scammed, but you may have simply just have a dog that didn't handle FF well and is clearly not ready for FTP (which you didn't know till we pointed it out).

I would seek a second opinion from a very qualified am or pro. Talk with the one who did the work, but if a good pro just simply pinches a dogs ear, they can likely tell you Very quickly of the dog even understands FF and pressure in general. I'd look to start there. Who knows what other skeletons may be in the closet.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Bluesky2012 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:57 pm

Puddle scum wrote:Really Bluesky, I didn't come on this site to play semantics. I get it. It is a correction collar to be used only in the appropriate situation. Really are you here to help or play footsie. Because right now your about as useful as some members of our United States Congress. Speak double talk and never accomplish anything


Semantics are important. It shows whether you have any idea how or when to operate an e-collar, especially at such a critical moment in a dog's development. Tiny details are what determines success in FF and pile work. Knowing more than just the surface layer is critical at the point you're at.


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Flatsmaster23 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:14 pm

Puddle I'm not a pro .... just a average joe like u that wanted a nice dog .... I'm sure ur frustrated by the responses but training a dog takes time and knowledge ... the more knowledge typically the quicker the dog understands what ur asking ....even if ur trainer was doing it for free ur not getting accomplished what u need to have a solid meat dog .... FF is tough but when done if u hold out a hat or a hammer and say fetch it's going to grab it .... having a dog that's obedient that will retrieve and object it sees thrown or shot and deliver to hand is the easiest part to accomplish and what the dog was breed to do ... to put a handle on a dog is a WHOLE diff level of time and knowledge and for ur dog to trust u completely .... for u and ur dogs sake find a solid pro with in driving range and get a 2nd opinion... your pup and yourself will be glad u did ....


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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:09 pm

dogyak wrote:It has nothing to do with how many dogs are on the site , and your pup wasn't properly FF . If the command was given , he would have gotten the object with or without collar , period . For the record , Dawn never said your trainer didn't get your pup the puppy shots . You kind of added that yourself . Heck , Stephen Durrence has over 60 dogs at his kennels , and gets the job done . It's no assumption , you were short change by your trainer . As I recommend , either find a new trainer or join a retriever club . You need someone to mentor you , those's DVD's don't show you what to do with many issues that might arise . You yourself needs to be trained .


Thank you dogyak. Odd that that was his only comment on my post, especially in light of the fact that he accuses the other posters of "assuming" things.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:31 am

If you gave a trainer an 8 week old pup and left it there 10 months, you were had.

At the least, you should have been at the trainers weekly to learn to work the dog. At 8 weeks the greatest thing you can do for a pup us to love it, not train it.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Dawnsearlylight » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:24 am

Puddle, whose idea was it to send the pup to a trainer at 8 weeks? I guess I could see doing that if you were aiming for a FTCH and dealing with a BNT who does that type of training, but for someone like yourself it was more important to establish a bond at that critical age, get the pup socialized, start conditioning responses to commands via play "training", etc. At that age it would have been more productive for you and the pup to take weekly lessons with a good pro who could teach you how to be a trainer. The dog was born knowing how to be a dog, you are the one who needed education.

Regardless of what the trainer did or didn't do, you brought home a pup that was bonded to someone else and regarded you as a stranger, and proceeded to pick up his training without a clear idea of what you were supposed to be doing or what to expect from him. What other posters are trying to tell you is that is a recipe for disaster, as you are discovering. Shooting the messenger doesn't negate the accuracy of the message.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby HNTFSH » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:12 pm

Puddle scum wrote:Hello all, I'm new to the site
I have a 1 year old chocolate lab that was recently trained and forced fetched. The trainer said he was hard to force fetch and said she had to use 2 collars to do it as well as toe pinch method. The trainer went through a demonstration with me when I picked him up with an ecollar on and for the most part he did well, when he didn't respond to a command she shocked him, but also used praise too. Well once I got him home, the dog wouldn't work for me with the ecollar. He wouldn't fetch when I asked him too, I started with low intensity of a one with no result and gradually increased to no avail. He would either run away from me or lay down or run into his kennel. However when live birds are used he loves it, but I just can't get him to do bumper retrieval. Anyone have any ideas on getting him to get bumpers. I think his force fetch training was hard on him and he saw it as a negative thing anytime bumpers are used.


Let us know how it progresses Puddle. Best case you just get some time to build some trust with your dog and think about your daily interactions/expectations based on what you feel/know has been trained. I do agree getting with a club would be a very good idea, and you can participate as able but meet some good helpful folks. It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying for more training.

Things that concern me for you are the shy issues (gun and force). Those can be just the dog or they can also be inflicted by humans. Either way, gotta deal with that in a positive way immediately. "Reading the dog" is the most important skill any trainer can have and it takes your full attention and thought to be good at it. Once there, an extreme value to you both.

Sometimes things require a carrot and sometimes a stick and it's really the dog that determines which works best.

Thanks for being a good sport. Lessor men have run from here (or any hunting dog forum) in a huff and it's a shame because they didn't learn a thing.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby jng1022 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:10 pm

Dawnsearlylight wrote:Puddle, whose idea was it to send the pup to a trainer at 8 weeks? I guess I could see doing that if you were aiming for a FTCH and dealing with a BNT who does that type of training, but for someone like yourself it was more important to establish a bond at that critical age, get the pup socialized, start conditioning responses to commands via play "training", etc. At that age it would have been more productive for you and the pup to take weekly lessons with a good pro who could teach you how to be a trainer. The dog was born knowing how to be a dog, you are the one who needed education.

Regardless of what the trainer did or didn't do, you brought home a pup that was bonded to someone else and regarded you as a stranger, and proceeded to pick up his training without a clear idea of what you were supposed to be doing or what to expect from him. What other posters are trying to tell you is that is a recipe for disaster, as you are discovering. Shooting the messenger doesn't negate the accuracy of the message.


FTCh?? Is this guy from Canada or the UK?

I don't think beating him up for sending a dog off to the trainer at 8 weeks is productive. Some trainers take pups that early, most discount the rate until the dog enters formal obedience around 6 months of age. Lots of guys have purchased started dogs, and bonded just fine and quickly with the dog, and they never even saw them until they were however old. This isn't a huge a deal. He already admitted he needed to spend some time getting to know the dog, and the dog him.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby ohio mike » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:05 pm

Why would you have to be from Canada or the UK to want a FTCH?
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby jng1022 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:30 pm

ohio mike wrote:Why would you have to be from Canada or the UK to want a FTCH?



I guess they wouldn't have to be, if they wanted to travel there to run for and obtain the title. It isn't a US title.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Dakota Creek » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:51 pm

jng1022 wrote:It isn't a US title.


So?

Some of us are crazy enough to run AKC, CKC, HRC and NAHRA! (See dogs in signature below) The dogs don't care what the game is .... they just want to pick up birds!! :biggrin:
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby jng1022 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:23 pm

You missed my point entirely.

I wasn't knocking the title or those who pursue it. And most people don't live in Canada or near the Canadian border and will never run a Canadian test or trial. You do and it makes sense you would.
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby Dakota Creek » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:11 am

jng1022 wrote:You missed my point entirely.


No I didn't' ..... just yanking your chain! :biggrin:
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Re: Chocolate lab force fetch issue

Postby jng1022 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:44 am

Dakota Creek wrote:
jng1022 wrote:You missed my point entirely.


No I didn't' ..... just yanking your chain! :biggrin:


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