Force Fetch

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Re: Force Fetch

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:32 am

I remember from my history books when some thought the best way to win a skirmish was to line up in red coats.
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby harrop » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:19 pm

Hold on a minute, you sometimes need phyical chastisement and its better if it comes as a shock to the dog thats how it removes a tool from the box. Quite simply any creature can get used to pain and some have higher levels of tollerance to begin with. Conditioning a dog to harsh treatment is as a consequence lessening its effect and removing a tool
To say Biddability cannot be bred into a line or should not bee seen as good general practice is maybee the craziest thing i have ever heard in regards breeding as it comes under "temprament" Sound physical condition and conformation was passed over slightly in prefference to the detriment of some of our lines here, also made worse by close line breeding without outcrosses a few years back (remember we are but a small nation) and latter by the over use of certain FTCH winning stud dogs without consideration beyond the fact that it was the top winning dog of the period. If you want the likes of an English pointer to retrieve you might want to consider FF if and when other meathods fail as it has no bred in Retrieving desire as a breed, but going down that line with a dog bred as a retriever and named as such sort of looses the plot and is like breeding sheepdogs without inate inbred hearding instinct

A good trainer can make a bad dog seem good, does that make it a good breeding prospect? i think not! Force fetch will hide inherited faults to say otherwise is totally off the chart. And that good trainer must evaluate each dog carefully IF he is to also be classed as a "good breeder".

English dogs are just an example that the whole FF thing is not a total must as a first point of call. No doubt you have breeders over there who use this tag as a selling point BUT and make no mistake we do also have bad breeders and unscupulous profiteers over here like anywere. The handle "English lines" i might suggest might be misused in the states especially afer a few generations of FF, std practice electric collars so on and so forth
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby HNTFSH » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:38 pm

Come on over and run some master tests or field trials. And we have dogs finding their own healthy game in the field not bush beaters. Tower shoots aren't common. Best I can tell we have apple and orange requirements both in field and in trial venue. I think most who care understand your point on breeding, don't think you understand the whole concept on collar and FF.
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby harrop » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:57 am

HNTFSH wrote:Come on over and run some master tests or field trials. And we have dogs finding their own healthy game in the field not bush beaters. Tower shoots aren't common. Best I can tell we have apple and orange requirements both in field and in trial venue. I think most who care understand your point on breeding, don't think you understand the whole concept on collar and FF.


Tower shoots do not exist in the UK, they are an invention of your own land don't know what you mean about bush beaters i think you are reffering to driven pheasant shoots were three different dog types and handlers exist beaters dogs which mearly find and flush from cover, peg dogs which stay with the guns rock steady till sent on selective retrieves and then the pickers up who often run teams of dogs (often made up of retrievers, spaniels and HPR's )following the drive picking up hundreds of birds and getting paid for it. I have used both FF and collars and they remain tools. Apples and Orange requirements? not realy our duck and goose shooting on the foreshore is very like yours our walked up days just like yours and our rough shooting again (the names are different thats all) i have visited your country many times. Your tests and trails are not the pinicle of gundog achievement worldwide, that is not to demean them but its best not to be too blinkered . Many good gundog men are comming away from trials in the UK as its getting so difficult to even get a run unless you are known to the judges etc. and the std has become so high that it is departing from what the shooting man actually wants at a tangent. Labs have to be fast, stylish and work to the pinpoint on the wistle. A picker up on the other hand will try and not use his wistle as when you have six dogs working it creates havock, a wildfowler cant even see were his dog is after evening flight etc let alone direct it by hand signal. To quote a comment from a friend recently " if a gun says theres a pheasant down somewere in that spinney (small wooded area) the last dog i will send is my FTCH retriever its always gonna be one of my rougher dogs that will go to the approximate place then work it all out for himself"
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby RNT_MAN » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:17 pm

A good trainer can make a bad dog seem good, does that make it a good breeding prospect? i think not! Force fetch will hide inherited faults to say otherwise is totally off the chart.


I totally disagree with this statement. A good trainer will bring out the best in a dog's potential. There is more than one way to train a dog to perform a task. I have personally seen a dog begin training at 4 months old have absolutely no drive or retrieving desire and after completing force fetch become a high drive retrieving machine and complete his MH title at 26 months. Do I believe that force fetching this dog hides the fact that he initially had no drive or desire? No, force fetching this dog gave him the tools required to bring out the desire he never had used. You can cannot create drive or intelligence, only bring it out and maximize a dog's potential. So I would definitely say that the trainer did not make a bad dog look good. It's all about finding what will turn the light bulb on. Only good dog's look good. I'll bet you a cup of tea on that... :beer:
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby harrop » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:24 pm

RNT_MAN wrote:
A good trainer can make a bad dog seem good, does that make it a good breeding prospect? i think not! Force fetch will hide inherited faults to say otherwise is totally off the chart.


I totally disagree with this statement. A good trainer will bring out the best in a dog's potential. There is more than one way to train a dog to perform a task. I have personally seen a dog begin training at 4 months old have absolutely no drive or retrieving desire and after completing force fetch become a high drive retrieving machine and complete his MH title at 26 months. Do I believe that force fetching this dog hides the fact that he initially had no drive or desire? No, force fetching this dog gave him the tools required to bring out the desire he never had used. You can cannot create drive or intelligence, only bring it out and maximize a dog's potential. So I would definitely say that the trainer did not make a bad dog look good. It's all about finding what will turn the light bulb on. Only good dog's look good. I'll bet you a cup of tea on that... :beer:


So on that score the only reason to choose which dogs and bitches to use in a breeding program is physical comformation. This is just turning into a nationalisic insular rant now so no point in continuing
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby GarDuck » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:41 pm

How old is to old for force fetch training?
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby aunt betty » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:35 pm

OMG. I didn't FF because i couldn't find a collar with a 'nub' on it and just gave up and skipped FF.

TWO WORDS I JUST READ MADE ME SICK!

THEY ARE: Golf Spike add the word (shoe) and I'm hitting myself on the noggin.


I could just kick myself for being such a 'tard'
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Re: Force Fetch

Postby Edge » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:37 am

There are many methods to train FF, these are some good examples. There will be a dog here and there that won't need it, but most do. Doc was one year when I started him on FF and it took ten minutes before I had to quit for the day, he just wouldn't do it. The next day he was a differant dog, fetched it, held it, and gave it. Never had to use preasure again. And this is what realy finished him, he was a machine after that. He was killed by a drunk driver last summer, so I am starting over with a Black Lab who is at one year right now, and this is a totaly differant dog and doesn't respond well to preasure so I am realy having to take my time with him, but he is doing everything else well. At 18 months Doc was finished, this Black dog, I don't know how long it will take, and I'm not sure I can get him to where I had doc or not. But he is being forced, if you don't do it, I don't think you will ever have a finished dog.

This is Doc at 1yr holding for pic.
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This is Doc at two.

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