Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:11 pm

HNTFSH wrote:I never said it didn't work for some. I said it was a crutch. And it is.....


A crutch is something that you cannot do without.
It's not something that allows you to get closer to the peak of your potential.

By your definition, having a gun that fits you, is a crutch.
Decoys are a crutch.
Hiding behind a blind is a crutch.
Using a choke that gives you the best pattern is a crutch.

Do you see where I am going with this?

I don't NEED any of those things, in order to kill ducks.

They don't make me a better duck hunter than I actually AM. They allow to be as effective a hunter as I possibly can be.

They are not crutches. And neither is a reflex sight.

A reflex sight doesn't make me a better shot than I AM. It allows me to be as effective with my shotgun as I possibly can be.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:57 pm

A crutch is a crutch is a crutch.

Just about everything you mentioned is important to being a good shot with or without the gizmo.

If it doesn't make you better shot -how can it make you more effective?
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:24 pm

HNTFSH wrote:.....If it doesn't make you better shot -how can it make you more effective?
The simplest way I can put it, is that it won't let you beat your best day, but it will do a whole lot to get rid of your bad days.

If the best you've ever done on the sporting clay course is an 85, and you average in the mid 70's, a reflex sight probably won't get you to break 90.

But, it will probably get your average up into the 80's right off the bat.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:45 pm

So it does or doesn't make you a better shooter?
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:48 pm

HNTFSH wrote:So it does or doesn't make you a better shooter?
It makes you more consistent.

The only thing that makes you a better shooter, is practice.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:17 pm

copterdoc wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:So it does or doesn't make you a better shooter?
It makes you more consistent.

The only thing that makes you a better shooter, is practice.


Consistency IS the result of practice.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:35 pm

HNTFSH wrote:......Consistency IS the result of practice.

Consistency, is the result of a lot of things.
Proficiency, is the result of practice.

A person can be a bad shot, and consistently break a low percentage of the targets that they shoot at.
If you are a consistently bad shot, a reflex sight isn't going to make you a good shot.
Last edited by copterdoc on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:39 pm

copterdoc wrote:
HNTFSH wrote:......Consistency IS the result of practice.

Consistency, is the result of a lot of things.
Proficiency, is the result of practice.

You can be a consistently bad shot.
If you are a consistently bad shot, a reflex sight isn't going to make you a good shot.


But it does make a good shot better or not?

Are you certain you aren't gaining some placebo effect?

It's a gizmo. YOU said it makes you more consistent.

So which is it? Does it make you more consistent, more proficient, more effective, or just 'better'?
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby okduckslayer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:46 pm

Have them send me one for my Beretta A400 and I will be happy to try it out this season and give a full review.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:49 pm

HNTFSH wrote:....But it does make a good shot better or not?

Again, the only thing that will make anybody a better shooter, is practice.

There are lots of things that shooters can change about their equipment, that will allow them to be more consistent.
Using a reflex sight, is one of those things.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby ibedamn » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:36 am

I have tried the Burris Site mounted on a Rem. 870 at clay targets . Maybe it's just me, but I could never really see the red dot. I have always been taught to watch the target, and that's what I did. I hit the clays but, I don't think the site had anything to do with it. Maybe it tales some getting use to??? Here is my question. Are you seeing the red dot and know exactly where it is when the gun goes off, or is it just a reference point, just like a bead?
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:13 am

ibedamn wrote:.....Are you seeing the red dot and know exactly where it is when the gun goes off, or is it just a reference point, just like a bead?
The only time I lose sight of the dot, is when I am shooting right into the sun.

I'm not red/green color blind, but I imagine that if I was, I would lose sight of the dot very easily.

The Burris Fast Fire II, is not the only reflex sight that I have used, and it doesn't have the largest, or brightest dot.

Trijicon has a few reflex sights, that don't use batteries, and have very bright amber dots, with the option of different sizes.
The mounting issue, is the biggest problem.

I'm still playing around with different sights. I haven't settled on what I feel is the "ultimate" setup. But, I'm getting closer.

I do not think that the 4 MOA dot on the FF2, is as large as would be ideal.
I haven't tried a 8 MOA FF3, but I think that it would be much better.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:19 am

One more thing that I found helps, is to use the spacers under the sight, to get the dot at least 1/4" above the bead.

You DO NOT want to set it up to co-witness your front bead. In fact, it's best if you can get it high enough that the entire barrel is below the FOV of the lens.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby mudpack » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:14 pm

copterdoc wrote:Here's the problem.
Their argument is based entirely on personal opinion.
......
Their opinion is not based on fact. It is based on fiction.
It is wrong.


:huh:
Seems to me that your argument is based entirely on your personal opinion, also....is it not?

Oh, I get it: you are one of those: "My opinion is fact-based. Your opinion is fiction-based." Well, couldn't we ALL say the same thing....and be accurate? I think so....

Fact is (and maybe it's the only fact), you aren't going to change many people's minds if they don believe in electrontic shotgun sights for wingshooting. Others, who may be looking for an easy way to improve their skills, might try it...but I don't expect sales of these devices to take a measurable jump.
By the way, if devices like this make it easier to more consistently hit a flying target, why don't we see them on the skeet/trap/5-stand/sporting fields? I shoot quite a bit of these sports and can't remember seeing one.

Good luck to you and to your shooting.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby toptrigger » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:29 am

Perfect practice makes perfect. If you're practicing the wrong way you're going to shoot the wrong way. Get some professional instruction if you have trouble hitting birds. I feel like this reflex sight is bandaid for a bigger problem???
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 am

toptrigger wrote:.....I feel like this reflex sight is bandaid for a bigger problem???
Have you ever used one?

The thing about a band-aid, is that when you are wearing one, you know that you are wearing one.
If a reflex sight improves your consistency, that's all the more that you need to think it.

I can't find anybody that has actually USED ONE, that has anything negative to say about them. Other than the cost and that they have trouble getting a good mounting system.

None of them regret trying them.

The only haters, are the traditionalists that don't have a CLUE how the sights work. In fact, they have no idea what they are talking about.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:11 am

mudpack wrote:...Seems to me that your argument is based entirely on your personal opinion, also....is it not?.
My opinion, is based on USING THEM.

They do not work like you think they work.
It's nothing that you can possibly comprehend, until you actually use one.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby T Man » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:23 am

If I had one on my gun I'd break it off. Not out of spite, but because for almost 20 years, my spatial awareness around a shotgun has been for one without sights. I would set it down, or bring it up and have it broken off within the first hour of hunting.
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Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby talltimber » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:05 pm

X2. I don't need more contraptions to pack around and break.
The only thing that it sounds like it might be good for is turkey hunting, when he's so far to the right (right handed) that you can't get a good cheek weld.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:54 pm

talltimber wrote:....The only thing that it sounds like it might be good for is turkey hunting,....
In case I haven't yet made it absolutely obvious, the world is already full of people that don't THINK that a reflex sight will work for wingshooting.

If you have never actually tried it, you are completely full of crap.
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Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby talltimber » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:58 pm

That may be so, but I'm not the one pimping some crap folks can easily do without. IMO, you haven't made one valid point about it to make anyone who knows anything about shotgunning already, think that it would help them.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:06 am

flinch wrote:copterdoc, so, what advantages I can get from this optic device to improve my shooting?

It doesn't cure cross dominance. It makes eye dominance irrelevant.

Every person that has two "good" eyes, sees a double image of the barrel when they focus on the target.
The brain "picks" one image over the other, and the eye that it receives that image from, is called the dominant eye.

When you are a cross dominant shooter, your dominant eye, selects the wrong barrel.

With a reflex sight, there is only one dot to choose. Your brain can't screw it up.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:34 am

flinch wrote:coperdoc ,in my opinion you are making a confusion between " double vision" and cross dominance"
No I am not.

Each eye sees an image at all times.

When both eyes focus on an object in the far-field, the inner pupillary distance increases, resulting in all near-field objects being seen as out of focus double images.

Focusing on the target with both eyes, requires that the near-field reference point of the barrel, be taken out of focus, and it will also be seen as a double image.

When both eyes focus on a near-field object, the inner pupillary distance decreases, making all far-field objects become out of focus double images.





When a Right eye dominant, Right handed shooter focuses on a target, he DOES see two out of focus barrels in his near-field vision. But, the brain picks the image from the right eye, over the left.

A Left eye dominant, Right handed shooter has a problem. Their brain picks the image seen by the left eye, and that barrel isn't pointing where the pattern is going to punch a hole through the sky.



Blocking the left eye, removes that "wrong barrel" and only leaves the shooter's brain with one image to choose from. It's a monocular image. Sure, it "solves" the cross-dominance problem, but it costs the shooter the advantages of binocular vision.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:46 am

flinch wrote:.....It can't make cross dominance irrelevant b/c the shooter see the barrel with two eyes, so, even the non dominant eye looks thru
the reflex sight the dominant eye will see the barrel.!!
The dominant eye is focused on the target, not the barrel. Yes, it will see the barrel, but the barrel is not what is being used as the "pointer".

The dot is what is being used as the pointer. A dot that "exists" in the near-field, but is projected out to the same focal plane as the target, and remains in clear focus. It doesn't matter what eye the dot is physically placed in front of. The brain puts it in the image.

Both eyes are focused on the target, so the brain only has one binocular image of it to process. Only one eye sees a dot, so there is only one dot for the brain to choose from.

A reflex sight makes eye dominance a non-issue. It makes it completely and utterly irrelevant.
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Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby Major Woods » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:53 am

Been using one on the shotgun for 20+ years now.
The local guys I talk to who are against them are the ones who never tried it out. For the 2 guys I took sea duck hunting on my boat and let them use my SuperNova with ATN sight fought me to give my gun back after using it for the morning, they loved it and are now using it on their shotguns :thumbsup:
Thousands on the boat.
Hundreds on decoys.
Time away from the wife....priceless
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