Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Share your questions on all makes and models of shotguns. Please post chokes questions in the SRBC forum

Moderators: Quack Wacker NC, MM

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby dsm16428 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:12 pm

Here's a pic of my SBE II with the Burris speed bead (FF II on the stock shim mount). As you can see...its TINY. The second pic is the sight compared to a regular tube type red dot sight and the last pick is only a very small example of what the sight can do. Those 5 geese fell in 5 shots at ranges from about 10 yards to about 45. In rebuttal to an earlier post, you most certainly are supposed to mounting to co-witness with the bead. The only time it shouldn't be is if your not set for correct drop or the bead/rib is way out of whack. I have since mounted it to a low profile picatinny rail and have the warbird stainless steel sight guard surrounding it. It keeps the site very well protected and has cut outs on both sides to allow light in on the sides. The FFII is also self adjusting to light conditions, preventing haloing or a too dim dot. The folks that have never tried one are most definitely the most vocal opponents of the reflex sites, apparently viewing them as like was said...gadgets, gismos or crutches. They are none of those things. They do nothing but put a dot in space, at the same focal point as the target and allow a much faster gun to target meld. Again also having used them in combat for cqb and intermediate range engagements, they are not only easy for the eye/brain to pick up and can be suprisingly accurate on a battle rifle when needed, but they just plain work for wing shooting. The haters will hate. Those of us that know better must only have to put up with their ignorance, fear or inexperience.
Attachments
IMG_201212127138.jpg
IMG_2012121245228.jpg
IMG_201212129392.jpg
Big Al's "Take-Em" Style Silhoutte Decoy Pro-Staff.
N.O. Outdoors Guide Service, President and CEO. "You try harder so we don't have to."
Don't do anything you wouldn't want to admit to the paramedics after.
dsm16428
hunter
 
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 7:15 am


Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby gunrunnerusmc03 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:13 am

^^ DSM i'm digging it. I have a few old FF1's laying around I've thought about getting the speed bead mount just to experiment. The problem with my Fast Fire is that the light sensor is wonky. In low light it causes the dot to pulse and it will basically lag but i figure the investment is minimal. If I can get the Fastfire to work well I was planning on making a mount for an RMR sight when funds allow.
gunrunnerusmc03
hunter
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:55 pm
Location: South Central, WI

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby mudpack » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:43 am

After reading all the pros and cons, I decided to try a reflex sight. I bought one and put it on my .22 pistol. I found that I still have to have my eye perfectly aligned with the barrel bore to even see the red dot. This is with a stationary, paper target.
I would never be able to pick up the red dot in the 1-2 seconds I'd have to get on a flying bird.
That said, once I acquired the dot, my accuracy improved over open/iron sights, but trying to obtain pinpoint accuracy with a shotgun is not needed or even desired.
I HAVE tried to hit a flying bird with a scoped rifle, which also has the same features as a reflex (you just line up the crosshairs instead of a dot), and it just doesn't work. Maybe if I were shooting at a Taliban soldier sitting beside a burned-out Toyota it would?
Maybe they work differently on a long gun than they do on a handgun, but I felt it was a waste of money on my pistol.

I keep coming back to this: if the reflex sight works so well in making a shotgun shooter better, why do we not see any on the guns of trap, skeet, sporting clays, etc. shooters. Those guys will do ANYTHING to pick up even one more bird in a round of 100. If the reflex truly worked on a shotgun, they would be using them....the secret would not last long.

Bottom line: if it works for you, great. I don't believe, based on my experience, that it would work well for me.
Last edited by mudpack on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby gunrunnerusmc03 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:51 am

Mounting reddots/reflex/mrds effectively to handguns can be a problem. When you see MRDs mounted to handgun slides, the trick is to bury the mount as deep as you can in the slide. The higher the sight is mounted over the bore combined with the fact you're holding the sight far away from your eye makes lining up and picking up the dot a pain in some cases. The lower you can mount the sight to the bore axis the easier it will be to pick up the dot. It takes some practice getting used to finding the dot as well.

On a rifle or shotgun, the closer you can mount your red dot to your eye the better. It increases your field of view exponentially and finding the dot is simple because it's right there inches away from you. To top it off, your face is resting on a stock in most cases so aligning your head to your sight is pretty simple and quick.
Last edited by gunrunnerusmc03 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
gunrunnerusmc03
hunter
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:55 pm
Location: South Central, WI

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby mudpack » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:58 am

I rather thought that might be the case, 'runner.

Still, using a reflex on a flying target would require that you use one type of lead management: the sustained lead method.
There are several other types that I find myself using more often than the sustained lead type, so the reflex would be somewhat limiting to my shooting.
Thanks for the quick reply.
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby dsm16428 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:21 am

mudpack, I have a reflex type sight mounted to a S&W 22A and one on a 22 Mag barrel for my TC Encore. What I find with hand guns is that it takes A LOT more practice to learn to shoot a handgun with a reflex sight on it that it does a long gun/shotgun. It is very easy to torque the grip on a hand gun and/or tip your wrist up or down and mess up the field of view with really any optics device on a pistol. It takes lots and lots of drills to build the muscle memory needed to consistently mount a pistol correctly with a reflex sight mounted on it. As far as the scope being the same as reflex/red dot sight? Not even close. 99% of all red dot/reflex sights are designed to be paralax free or almost paralax free while a scope is not, and actually have their paralax settings set at at least 50 yards from the objective lens. gunrunner has it right. Mount the sight so that your eye automatially aligns with the dot, be it at the stock/receiver joint like the FF II or if you must with a scope mount on the receiver top, use a comb raising piece like the bear tooth comb raising kit. I have an AimPoint Comp CM 2 sight mounted on my Mod. 1300 turkey gun and even with the thin picatinny rail and low rings, I still need a comb raiser (by way of the beartooth kit) to alow my eye to naturally line up with the tube. What I have also found is that with the really tiny sights like the FF II's and III's that are mounted to the receiver top is that when you do need to raise the comb even a slight bit, those neoprene stock wraps with the shell holders are the cat's meow as not only do they get your cheek up that tiny bit needed to align with the sight, they also hold extra rounds close at hand and help to take the sting/smack out of the gun upon recoil...even with fairly soft shooters like gas-op guns.
Big Al's "Take-Em" Style Silhoutte Decoy Pro-Staff.
N.O. Outdoors Guide Service, President and CEO. "You try harder so we don't have to."
Don't do anything you wouldn't want to admit to the paramedics after.
dsm16428
hunter
 
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby gunrunnerusmc03 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:46 am

The bigger picture here that a lot of guys are missing when it comes to this thread is that you're not aiming with the red dot like you would on a rifle or handgun.

When using red dots on a rifle/handgun you're focusing on the dot not the target (target is there but fuzzy) when you fire the shot. With the shotgun depending how you're able to mount your sight you're doing the direct opposite. You're trying to look through the sight (as if it wasn't there at all) focusing at the target instead of the dot (the dot will be there but it's fuzzy since you eye can only focus on one object at a time).

When you mount your gun, your head and eye should align properly to the sight. You swing through the target like normal but since you can see the fuzzy dot projected at your moving target your brain can do the math and tell you when to pull the trigger. The advantage of this method is you don't have to use the sustained lead method if you don't want to. You can but it's not required. Another advantage is if/when you mount your gun, if your head not planted on the comb in the correct spot the dot will still be on target unlike using rib/bead where you head is actually the rear sight on the shotgun( moving your head will affect where your shot will go with bead/rib).

When you mount your red dot (preferably a mini red dot as they are less obtrusive ) it needs to be mounted in a manner that allows it to be close to your eye as possible to maximize your field of view. This allows you to look through the sight as if it weren't there and focus on nothing but the target.

This technique does have it's pros and cons. You will require extra equipment. That equipment will require upkeep and periodic maintenance (cleaning fresh batteries etc) It requires practice since you have to basically retrain with this method. Your equipment can falter leaving you SOL (you can co-witness your MRD though). It's not for everyone. Some people are just better off with the KISS mentality and should just leave it at that.
gunrunnerusmc03
hunter
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:55 pm
Location: South Central, WI

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby WIDrakeKiller » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:38 am

Not saying I think u guys are unethical hunters, but I sometimes think its unfair to use those things.
WIDrakeKiller
hunter
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby gunrunnerusmc03 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:46 am

right...anyways
gunrunnerusmc03
hunter
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:55 pm
Location: South Central, WI

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby WIDrakeKiller » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:58 am

Whatever
WIDrakeKiller
hunter
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby gunrunnerusmc03 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:12 pm

WIDrakeKiller wrote:Whatever

So you shoot from the hip then? No sights, no bead, nothing right? Gives the hunters an unfair advantage you claim?
gunrunnerusmc03
hunter
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:55 pm
Location: South Central, WI

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby dsm16428 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:17 pm

WIDrakeKiller wrote:Not saying I think u guys are unethical hunters, but I sometimes think its unfair to use those things.


How is it unfair or unethical to use whatever legally allowed tool to help you ETHICALLY and efficiently harvest your game? We owe it to the birds to kill them as quickly as possible no? If someone uses a reflex sight on their shotgun to help them hit birds or simply just uses one because they like it and its legal its their right no? Would you want someone telling you its unfair to use hevi shot instead of steel because it gives you too big an advantage in cleanly killing birds? I didn't think so.
Big Al's "Take-Em" Style Silhoutte Decoy Pro-Staff.
N.O. Outdoors Guide Service, President and CEO. "You try harder so we don't have to."
Don't do anything you wouldn't want to admit to the paramedics after.
dsm16428
hunter
 
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby lyrikz » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:29 pm

That is awesome. Of course I have the 887 there does not seem to be an option for that
lyrikz
hunter
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:18 am

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby POKER1 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:54 am

"Another advantage is if/when you mount your gun, if your head not planted on the comb in the correct spot the dot will still be on target unlike using rib/bead where you head is actually the rear sight on the shotgun( moving your head will affect where your shot will go with bead/rib)".


IMO that is one of the biggest advantages of the sight. For the heavily practiced shooter it may offer nothing. But I find myself taking many off hand or off balanced shots. Not being squared up, able to properly mount my gun, clothing considerations and just the constant changing variables lead to missed shots. Not getting your head down on the stock is a big reason from what I have seen. The sights have some built in forgiveness that many can benefit from. As for being unethical. If they are then so is the shells, calls, decoys and other high tech equipment you are using.
User avatar
POKER1
hunter
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:16 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby mudpack » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:17 pm

For the heavily practiced shooter it may offer nothing. But I find myself taking many off hand or off balanced shots. Not being squared up, able to properly mount my gun, clothing considerations and just the constant changing variables lead to missed shots. Not getting your head down on the stock is a big reason from what I have seen. The sights have some built in forgiveness that many can benefit from.

But if your head is out of position, you can't see the red dot..... :huh:
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby POKER1 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:05 pm

mudpack wrote:
For the heavily practiced shooter it may offer nothing. But I find myself taking many off hand or off balanced shots. Not being squared up, able to properly mount my gun, clothing considerations and just the constant changing variables lead to missed shots. Not getting your head down on the stock is a big reason from what I have seen. The sights have some built in forgiveness that many can benefit from.

But if your head is out of position, you can't see the red dot..... :huh:


Im not talking 6". I can still see the sight without my head glued to my stock.
User avatar
POKER1
hunter
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:16 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby slickhair58 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:08 pm

Lyrikz- rem makes a saddle mount that fits the 887 .it replaces the two drift pins that keep the trigger assembly in
slickhair58
hunter
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:53 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby lyrikz » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:19 pm

slickhair58 wrote:Lyrikz- rem makes a saddle mount that fits the 887 .it replaces the two drift pins that keep the trigger assembly in


They have one for the 870. Doesn't work on the 887. I have not found anything for the 887
lyrikz
hunter
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:18 am

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby lyrikz » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:42 pm

POKER1 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
For the heavily practiced shooter it may offer nothing. But I find myself taking many off hand or off balanced shots. Not being squared up, able to properly mount my gun, clothing considerations and just the constant changing variables lead to missed shots. Not getting your head down on the stock is a big reason from what I have seen. The sights have some built in forgiveness that many can benefit from.

But if your head is out of position, you can't see the red dot..... :huh:


Im not talking 6". I can still see the sight without my head glued to my stock.



This isnt the type of sight you are talking about right?

http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vor ... -30mm-ring
lyrikz
hunter
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:18 am

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby erp10 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:34 am

So I just got my mount for my maxus to put my fastfire II on. To the people that say a reflex sight helps kill more birds there may be some truth to that. I havent killed more birds but I can tell you what I did wrong on the birds I missed. Most of the time I didn't lead them enough. The reflex sight has helped tell me what I'm doing wrong and hopefully make me a better shooter.
User avatar
erp10
hunter
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:54 am
Location: Central Pa

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:29 am

gunrunnerusmc03 wrote:....I was planning on making a mount for an RMR sight when funds allow.
You don't need to make one.

The Trijicon RM37 adapter plate for Doctor sights works for the Burris SpeedBead mount.

That's what I'm doing. I love that RMR RM05 sight.

I had to replace a couple of the factory screws, and install a longer setscrew, in order to get the SpeedBead mount rock solid.
But, since I figured it out, this thing hasn't moved.
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5847
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:02 am

Reflex Sight-
Don't want to knock it too much, or knock anyone who uses 'em.

There's really no "right" way to say this without sounding like a complete azz, so lemme' apologize up front before I say it-

It really seems to me, (like various other modern "conveniences"), that it takes away the neccessity to really learn how to shoot a friggin' shotgun, similar to the convenience of clicking a mouse and getting instant information.

If one could take the time to learn how to follow through with your swing on a shot, it would certainly seem to me you could save yourself some money and you wouldn't need one.

Sorry for the negativity guys,... Geeze man, ya' gotta' MISS a target before you really learn how to HIT one,.. and they, (reflex sights), seem to me to be like a set of training wheels on a bicycle.
:beer:
Swampbilly1980- I got a feeva',..and the only cure is more Mergansers and face paint.
User avatar
swampbilly 1980
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 9073
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Gloucester,Va.

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:34 am

I can't imagine shooting one on a duck gun.

I have one on my turkey gun and it has 2 major problems.

1) any water on the lens at all and it becomes completely useless
2) in low light the brightness of the dot makes it difficult to see the target.


After being unable to take shots on 2 turkeys because if the above, my reflex sight is now on a rail with qd mounts so I can at least use the bead.
assateague wrote:Wives are all against super cool, awesome ideas. If Columbus had been married, we'd all still be European.



WisconsinWaterfowler wrote: You just have to use the back of your throat and hum. That's how I would describe it anyways.
User avatar
DeadEye_Dan
hunter
 
Posts: 2067
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: Great Lakes

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:42 pm

DeadEye_Dan wrote:I can't imagine shooting one on a duck gun.

I have one on my turkey gun and it has 2 major problems.

1) any water on the lens at all and it becomes completely useless
2) in low light the brightness of the dot makes it difficult to see the target.


After being unable to take shots on 2 turkeys because if the above, my reflex sight is now on a rail with qd mounts so I can at least use the bead.

You must have a cheapie.

My Trijicons and FastFires have been dunked and drenched plenty of times. Beaded water on the lens, is only distracting if you let it be. It doesn't effect performance.

They also are self regulating, so they don't bloom in low light.
But the FFII does wash out when pointing right into the sun.
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5847
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

Re: Who has Actually TRIED Wingshooting with a Reflex Sight?

Postby copterdoc » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:36 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote:....It really seems to me, (like various other modern "conveniences"), that it takes away the neccessity to really learn how to shoot a friggin' shotgun, similar to the convenience of clicking a mouse and getting instant information.....
It won't make you shoot better than you already do. And, it doesn't effect your ability to shoot well without it.

I frequently switch back and forth between the gun I shoot best without any sight other than the rib, and the gun I have the RMR mounted on.

My best scores are about the same with both. But, with the reflex sight, I don't have nearly as many days that I can't seem to hit jack. And oddly enough, a round with the reflex sight, helps me when I shoot the next round without it.

swampbilly 1980 wrote:......If one could take the time to learn how to follow through with your swing on a shot, it would certainly seem to me you could save yourself some money and you wouldn't need one.....
I would never say that you need one. But, it's one of those things that I don't want to give up.

swampbilly 1980 wrote:Sorry for the negativity guys,... Geeze man, ya' gotta' MISS a target before you really learn how to HIT one,.. and they, (reflex sights), seem to me to be like a set of training wheels on a bicycle.
:beer:
Training wheels, keep you from having to learn how to balance. When you use a reflex sight for wingshooting, you still gotta do all the same "balancing".
User avatar
copterdoc
hunter
 
Posts: 5847
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:55 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Shotgun Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CanardNoir, Il outdoors junkie, NHWDduckhntr, uglymug and 23 guests