20 gauge

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:14 am

Same shooter...20 gauge
Same shooter...12 gauge

What do you think the outcome will be?

Remember, the original "claim" was the 20 gauge can kill as far as a 12 gauge.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:26 am

Yuchi1 wrote:Same shooter...20 gauge
Same shooter...12 gauge

What do you think the outcome will be?

Remember, the original "claim" was the 20 gauge can kill as far as a 12 gauge.

apg36820 wrote:I have been thinking for sometime now that I might make the switch from 12 gauge to 20. My dad shoots 20 gauge eclusivly and has been trying to get me to switch for awhile. I have had difficulty finding a 20 gauge. any suggestions on a good 20 gauge for field use.

I don't see that claim anywhere in the op?
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:03 am

Rick Hall wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote:
cootlover wrote:All I shoot is a m2 20 ga ,patten master, kents fast steel 3in #2, I kill ducks just as far as any 12 ga :thumbsup:


X2 except for the Benelli. I think a lot of people underestimate the 20 and what it's capable of.


And some apparently overestimate it. If I wanted to kill ducks as far as any 12ga, I'd shoot a 12 - or 10. But I'm much more interested in seeing how close I can get our birds than how far we can kill them.


Perhaps, this will be helpful.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:08 am

Yuchi I don't really give two chits about the petty arguments you have going with other members, I'm just trying to keep things honest for the thousands of lurkers who don't know shitfromshiola
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:09 am

duckslayer74 wrote: Certainly a 12 has more chances of hitting a duck due to having more pellets per load which makes the 12 a more forgiving gauge to shoot...

Isn't that the very point some of us have been trying to make all along?? :rolleyes:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:14 am

duckslayer74 wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote:I agree with your statement Jim, what I don't agree with is that people are saying you can't shoot a 20 at longer distances. That's where I say you can shoot a 20 at distance if your choked properly. Certainly a 12 has more chances of hitting a duck due to having more pellets per load which makes the 12 a more forgiving gauge to shoot just as a 20 is more forgiving than a 28. Now if we were shooting a solid mass like a slug, bigger is defineately better.

Not sure about the slug part.......but absolutely agree that a 20 can be just as deadly at any range as a 12. It just takes a more accurate shot, and a tighter choke. I think we all miss at times due to mis-pointing the shotgun. A 12 ga is more efficient at any given range as it has more shot. More shot at a distance equals either a denser pattern or a larger pattern, depending upon choke.


Thanks Jim, thats all I've been trying to say. :beer:


Jim's quote in red is what I've been trying to get across. Nothing else.

Can you understand that Yuchi???
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:16 am

jehler wrote:Yuchi I don't really give two chits about the petty arguments you have going with other members, I'm just trying to keep things honest for the thousands of lurkers who don't know shitfromshiola


You in the running for busybody of the month award?
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:18 am

duckslayer74 wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote:I agree with your statement Jim, what I don't agree with is that people are saying you can't shoot a 20 at longer distances. That's where I say you can shoot a 20 at distance if your choked properly. Certainly a 12 has more chances of hitting a duck due to having more pellets per load which makes the 12 a more forgiving gauge to shoot just as a 20 is more forgiving than a 28. Now if we were shooting a solid mass like a slug, bigger is defineately better.

Not sure about the slug part.......but absolutely agree that a 20 can be just as deadly at any range as a 12. It just takes a more accurate shot, and a tighter choke. I think we all miss at times due to mis-pointing the shotgun. A 12 ga is more efficient at any given range as it has more shot. More shot at a distance equals either a denser pattern or a larger pattern, depending upon choke.


Thanks Jim, thats all I've been trying to say. :beer:


Jim's quote in red is what I've been trying to get across. Nothing else.

Can you understand that Yuchi???


I understand you haven't gotten anything (other than screaming rants) across other than made a claim, you have yet to substantiate.

However, since you apparently have 12 ga. & 20 ga. Winchester shotguns, conduct your own testing.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:21 am

Yuchi1 wrote:The 20 gauge cannot "kill" as far as a 12 gauge.
You will simply run out of pattern density primarily due to the lighter payload.

Sure, you can choke down a 20 gauge to make it effective to 40-45 yards however, the same choking in a 12 gauge (w/steel cartridges) will go to 50-55 yards before pattern density fades out. This is simply because 1 3/16 oz., 1 1/4 oz. or 1 3/8 oz. of pellets have a physical advantage over 1 oz. of steel, regardless of bore size.


No fail there. Yuchi speaks the plain truth. If you can't see it, I sure can't help you.

Jim missed with one statement, the one about a 20 gauge having the same maximum range as a 12 guage; they do not.

Since the maximum range for a shotgun generally is determined by pattern density....when the range is so great that there aren't enough pellets per square inch to reliably place at least one pellet in a vital, that is the max range of that load/gun.....the more shot in the pattern, the longer that pattern will be dense enough to kill. Individual pellet speed/energy has nothing to do with a shotgun's effective range, unless your are shooting extremely small shot.
That's why heavier payloads are longer range payloads, all else being equal. I.e. 12 gauge guns can be longer range guns than 20 gauge guns, for one reason: they can shoot a heavier payload.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:22 am

mudpack wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote: Certainly a 12 has more chances of hitting a duck due to having more pellets per load which makes the 12 a more forgiving gauge to shoot...

Isn't that the very point some of us have been trying to make all along?? :rolleyes:


This^^^, along with his prior claim the 20 gauge could kill as far as a 12 gauge.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:44 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote: Certainly a 12 has more chances of hitting a duck due to having more pellets per load which makes the 12 a more forgiving gauge to shoot...

Isn't that the very point some of us have been trying to make all along?? :rolleyes:


This^^^, along with his prior claim the 20 gauge could kill as far as a 12 gauge.


@ Yuchi
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Last edited by duckslayer74 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:53 am

I think the "thousands of lurkers" now know, duckslayer74fromshinola. :oops:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:40 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:I think the "thousands of lurkers" now know, duckslayer74fromshinola. :oops:


That's a good one from "Yuchit for brains".
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:30 pm

Fact: a single #2 steel pellet ("Golden BB") fired at 1500fps from a 20ga will kill at the exact same distance as the same Golden BB fired from a 12ga at the same muzzle velocity.

Fact: That is called a "lucky shot".

Fact: Consistent kills (by a shotgun) come from placing a certain number of shot on the bird, a number that ensures...statistically-speaking....that at least one of those shot hits a vital organ in the bird, killing it immediately.

Fact: the more shot in the pattern, the better your chances of one of those shot finding a vital organ.

Ergo: the larger gage guns, with their heavier payloads (more shot in the shell), have a better chance of putting one of those pellets in a vital area. This is what makes the larger gage guns more effective in bringing down birds at ranges where the small payloads fail to give adequate pattern density. Pattern density is what makes a load a consistent killer, not a lucky hit from a single pellet. A 20ga can kill just as far as a 12 gauge, put most of the time it won't.

Small payloads, from small guns, run out of pattern density sooner than larger payloads from larger gauge guns. And pattern density is what brings birds down immediately, shot after shot, season after season.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:52 pm

That's why I use TSS #7, 8 or 9 in my 28 ga, lots of pellets for the pattern density and a heck of a lot more energy in these small dimensionally but large density mass 18 g/cm^3 shot and use 5/8 to 3/4 oz of shot. There is no comparison to the inferior large steel pellets Steel and the smaller Steel pellets are on a different page. That comparison should be done at 40 yards plus because for shorter ranges just about anything will work, round or irregular shapes of wannabe Tungsten mixed or not with steel shot, cubic shot or rock salt.
Do not underestimate the ability of the sub gauges in the hands of a marksman especially when using TSS, you will lose every time.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:53 pm

mudpack wrote:Fact: a single #2 steel pellet ("Golden BB") fired at 1500fps from a 20ga will kill at the exact same distance as the same Golden BB fired from a 12ga at the same muzzle velocity.

This is the point I have been trying to make." Golden BB", not at 50yds. I generally keep that as my max yardage with either gun

Fact: That is called a "lucky shot".

Fact: Consistent kills (by a shotgun) come from placing a certain number of shot on the bird, a number that ensures...statistically-speaking....that at least one of those shot hits a vital organ in the bird, killing it immediately.

There is no set number of shot needed if the BBs are in the vitals. 4 BBs in said area is as good as 8 if both kill the target right?

Fact: the more shot in the pattern, the better your chances of one of those shot finding a vital organ.

I agree with this 100 percent, always have.


Ergo: the larger gage guns, with their heavier payloads (more shot in the shell), have a better chance of putting one of those pellets in a vital area. This is what makes the larger gage guns more effective in bringing down birds at ranges where the small payloads fail to give adequate pattern density. Pattern density is what makes a load a consistent killer, not a lucky hit from a single pellet. A 20ga can kill just as far as a 12 gauge, put most of the time it won't.

This is why I shoot a tight choke is to be able to do that. A tight choke like I use does make it easier to miss at any range also. I know my 12 would increase my chances of bagging a bird but where I hunt is a good walk and my 20 is a lot lighter.
Small payloads, from small guns, run out of pattern density sooner than larger payloads from larger gauge guns. And pattern density is what brings birds down immediately, shot after shot, season after season.


I think to an extent we agree more than we might want to admit, and to you I apologize if I didn't get my point across clearly. :beer:
Last edited by duckslayer74 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:59 pm

lostknife4 wrote:That's why I use TSS #7, 8 or 9 in my 28 ga, lots of pellets for the pattern density and a heck of a lot more energy in these small dimensionally but large density mass 18 g/cm^3 shot and use 5/8 to 3/4 oz of shot. There is no comparison to the inferior large steel pellets Steel and the smaller Steel pellets are on a different page. That comparison should be done at 40 yards plus because for shorter ranges just about anything will work, round or irregular shapes of wannabe Tungsten mixed or not with steel shot, cubic shot or rock salt.
Do not underestimate the ability of the sub gauges in the hands of a marksman especially when using TSS, you will lose every time.
Lost


I'd love to shoot TSS, but right now it's a bit to spendy for me. I would love to take my 28 out with those loads though. :smile:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:32 pm

When you add up all the rest of the expense to hunt ducks, six shells for six ducks per day is a very small percentage.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:44 pm

lostknife4 wrote:When you add up all the rest of the expense to hunt ducks, six shells for six ducks per day is a very small percentage.
Lost

i shoot a box of shells every time out even if half the time I'm shooting "psy ops" dont want anybody out there thinking we arent busy :lol3:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:13 pm

lostknife4 wrote:When you add up all the rest of the expense to hunt ducks, six shells for six ducks per day is a very small percentage.
Lost



I don't think I could concentrate on the bird knowing those shells were a couple bucks apiece.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:51 pm

They're not, the shot alone is US$49.00per lb /16 oz per lb= US $3.06 per shot for
1 oz loads.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:54 pm

jehler wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:When you add up all the rest of the expense to hunt ducks, six shells for six ducks per day is a very small percentage.
Lost

i shoot a box of shells every time out even if half the time I'm shooting "psy ops" dont want anybody out there thinking we arent busy :lol3:


Just the opposite here, we shoot so few shells that everyone thinks it's a poor place to hunt LOL
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:07 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
jehler wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:When you add up all the rest of the expense to hunt ducks, six shells for six ducks per day is a very small percentage.
Lost

i shoot a box of shells every time out even if half the time I'm shooting "psy ops" dont want anybody out there thinking we arent busy :lol3:


Just the opposite here, we shoot so few shells that everyone thinks it's a poor place to hunt LOL
Lost


Bwhahaha!!! Good plan. :thumbsup:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:52 pm

duckslayer74 wrote:
mudpack wrote:Fact: a single #2 steel pellet ("Golden BB") fired at 1500fps from a 20ga will kill at the exact same distance as the same Golden BB fired from a 12ga at the same muzzle velocity.

This is the point I have been trying to make." Golden BB", not at 50yds. I generally keep that as my max yardage with either gun

Fact: That is called a "lucky shot".

Fact: Consistent kills (by a shotgun) come from placing a certain number of shot on the bird, a number that ensures...statistically-speaking....that at least one of those shot hits a vital organ in the bird, killing it immediately.

There is no set number of shot needed if the BBs are in the vitals. 4 BBs in said area is as good as 8 if both kill the target right?

Fact: the more shot in the pattern, the better your chances of one of those shot finding a vital organ.

I agree with this 100 percent, always have.


Ergo: the larger gage guns, with their heavier payloads (more shot in the shell), have a better chance of putting one of those pellets in a vital area. This is what makes the larger gage guns more effective in bringing down birds at ranges where the small payloads fail to give adequate pattern density. Pattern density is what makes a load a consistent killer, not a lucky hit from a single pellet. A 20ga can kill just as far as a 12 gauge, put most of the time it won't.

This is why I shoot a tight choke is to be able to do that. A tight choke like I use does make it easier to miss at any range also. I know my 12 would increase my chances of bagging a bird but where I hunt is a good walk and my 20 is a lot lighter.

This ^^^, is not what you stated originally as in fact, you said the 20 gauge will kill birds as far as the 12 gauge, which can/will exceed 50 yards in lethal range. However, I now understand why you prefer the 20 gauge with being so wimpy that carrying a few more ounces of gun/cartridges is such a burden. Hopefully, they'll drop someday and you'll be able to handle a grown man's weapon.' Also, your passive/aggressive style (now, sucking up to Muddy) isn't anything novel either.

Small payloads, from small guns, run out of pattern density sooner than larger payloads from larger gauge guns. And pattern density is what brings birds down immediately, shot after shot, season after season.


I think to an extent we agree more than we might want to admit, and to you I apologize if I didn't get my point across clearly. :beer:
Last edited by Yuchi1 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:56 pm

[quote="duckslayer74"']There is no set number of shot needed if the BBs are in the vitals. 4 BBs in said area is as good as 8 if both kill the target right?

Fact: the more shot in the pattern, the better your chances of one of those shot finding a vital organ.
[/quote]

Your question was somewhat answered by my next statement, but I'll elaborate: yes, 4 is as good as 8 if one of those four find a vital organ. (ONE is sufficient if it finds a vital organ.) Of course, the chances of one pellet finding that vital are eight times greater if there are 8 pellets on-target instead of 1 pellet....and twice as good as if there are only 4 on-target. That's why heavier payloads drop more long-distance birds than lighter payloads.

There are accepted minimum numbers for pellets on target. These numbers provide for the minimum, statistically-accepted odds of ONE of those pellets finding a vital organ. You don't need 8 pellets in the vitals, but you may need six body hits to give statistical probability of ONE of those hits being in the vitals. Remember; not 100% of a duck's body is a vital organ: there is a lot of body that can receive hits and the bird will fly away, perhaps to die miles away in the cattails, perhaps to survive.

You are right on this, though: we probably agree on more than we think. No apologies necessary. :beer:
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