20 gauge

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:38 pm

So let me get this right a 410 will out shoot a 10 gauge :moon:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:09 pm

It's not the gauge that does the killing it's a sufficient amount of energy contained within a circle that encompasses the bird with pellet mass to penetrate the bird sufficiently enough to hit vital organs or bones to render the bird to hand. Small #9 TSS payloads with a high mass density yields a dense enough pattern with pellet energy sufficient to do more damage than letter size Steel pellets do at longer distances and higher payloads and high muzzle velocities. TSS requires a lot less velocity and more open chokes, with lighter loads that yield high pattern densities with small shot sizes because of such a high mass density and can accomplish these characteristics easily with the use of the sub gauges.
I have never loaded any TSS in my 10 ga, there really is no reason to as my 12 and 28 ga can throw a sufficient enough payload for more than a reasonable distance.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:11 pm

It's not the gauge that does the killing it's a sufficient amount of energy contained within a circle that encompasses the bird with pellet mass to penetrate the bird sufficiently enough to hit vital organs or bones to render the bird to hand. Small #9 TSS payloads with a high mass density yields a dense enough pattern with pellet energy sufficient to do more damage than letter size Steel pellets do at longer distances and higher payloads and high muzzle velocities. TSS requires a lot less velocity and more open chokes, with lighter loads that yield high pattern densities with small shot sizes because of such a high mass density and can accomplish these characteristics easily with the use of the sub gauges. Sorry for the thought flow of the rant here I'm falling asleep.
I have never loaded any TSS in my 10 ga, there really is no reason to as my 12 and 28 ga can throw a sufficient enough payload for more than a reasonable distance.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Glimmerjim » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:51 pm

mudpack wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:The 20 gauge cannot "kill" as far as a 12 gauge.
You will simply run out of pattern density primarily due to the lighter payload.

Sure, you can choke down a 20 gauge to make it effective to 40-45 yards however, the same choking in a 12 gauge (w/steel cartridges) will go to 50-55 yards before pattern density fades out. This is simply because 1 3/16 oz., 1 1/4 oz. or 1 3/8 oz. of pellets have a physical advantage over 1 oz. of steel, regardless of bore size.


No fail there. Yuchi speaks the plain truth. If you can't see it, I sure can't help you.

Jim missed with one statement, the one about a 20 gauge having the same maximum range as a 12 guage; they do not.
Since the maximum range for a shotgun generally is determined by pattern density....when the range is so great that there aren't enough pellets per square inch to reliably place at least one pellet in a vital, that is the max range of that load/gun.....the more shot in the pattern, the longer that pattern will be dense enough to kill. Individual pellet speed/energy has nothing to do with a shotgun's effective range, unless your are shooting extremely small shot.
That's why heavier payloads are longer range payloads, all else being equal. I.e. 12 gauge guns can be longer range guns than 20 gauge guns, for one reason: they can shoot a heavier payload.

That's a good point that got me thinking, mudpack. I guess what would have to be determined is at what distance the shot, at whatever speed, becomes less effective at penetration, and/or bone breakage. If the shot has lost it's power at a certain range, was that range within, or outside, the distance at which a gun can be reasonably choked and still be expected to have a reasonable chance at knocking down a bird cleanly? If sufficient energy is lost at a range that a 20 ga can be choked to, while maintaining a decent pattern, then the question is simply one of accuracy. Yes, you can get more pattern density with a 12 ga due to a larger payload at a given distance, but is this distance inside or outside the reasonable "lethality" power of any shotgun shooting at a given speed? I think we should disregard the "Golden BB" concept for the purposes of this discussion. You could theoretically down a honker at 100 yards with a 410 if a pellet caught him in the eye, perhaps, but let's try to keep it outside of the realm of "Looney Tunes"! :lol3:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:28 am

Glimmerjim wrote: you can get more pattern density with a 12 ga due to a larger payload at a given distance, but is this distance inside or outside the reasonable "lethality" power of any shotgun shooting at a given speed?:

A 12 gauge's pattern density can always be superior to a 20 gauge's, simpley because you can always load a heavier payload in a 12 than you can in a 20. So, the answer must be: "ALL distances".


Glimmerjim wrote:I think we should disregard the "Golden BB" concept for the purposes of this discussion. You could theoretically down a honker at 100 yards with a 410 if a pellet caught him in the eye, perhaps, but let's try to keep it outside of the realm of "Looney Tunes"! :lol3:

Oh, I think you are 101% correct!! I try to deal in degrees of statistical probability, not 1 in 1000 chances. But, even if we were considering the Golden BB possibilities, the 12 gauge shooter can have a significantly better chance of pulling one off.
Any way you look at it, gauge-wise, the 12 gives a shooter more chance for a downed bird.
(not trying to convince you, Glimmer, this is for the forum members who believe a 20 is the equal of the 12, in all conditions)
Last edited by mudpack on Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:53 am

Once again: gauge has nothing to do with pellet performance. A pellet from a 10 ga has the same exterior ballistic characteristics as one from a 410. The maximum range of a TSS pellet is much further than any Steel pellet.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:02 am

lostknife4 wrote: The maximum range of a TSS pellet is much further than any Steel pellet.


Hmmmmmm....are you sure about that?

How about comparing a #9 TSS pellet to an F steel pellet.....which would maintain lethal energy the longest distance?
Anyone know??
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:47 pm

I was just wondering how far do you guy's normally shoot at duck's and harvest them maybe not just kill but you our your mutt can retrieve the bird :huh: Be honest .
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:59 pm

I'll bet "Cuchi" knows. The manly man he is, I'm sure he shoots and kill ducks at 100yds with his big bad 12ga. I'll bet he doesn't even need a dog since his have "dropped" and a nasty walk in the marsh is nothing to him. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Big bad Internet tough guy you, I give up, your so much better than me. (Insert middle finger here).
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:23 pm

duckslayer74 wrote:Big bad Internet tough guy you, I give up, your so much better than me. (Insert middle finger here).

Who are you talking to?
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:30 pm

mudpack wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote:Big bad Internet tough guy you, I give up, your so much better than me. (Insert middle finger here).

Who are you talking to?


Yuchi. Seems he wants to get down and dirty and take personal shots. I have told him to take it to PMs if he wanted to keep going but he doesn't comprehend. I've got no issues with you mud.
Last edited by duckslayer74 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:33 pm

cootlover wrote:I was just wondering how far do you guy's normally shoot at duck's and harvest them maybe not just kill but you our your mutt can retrieve the bird :huh: Be honest .

Probably confidently shoot to 35 yards, expecting bird to fall. Probably shoot out to 45, or a little more, and hope it falls! :lol3: Mistakenly a little farther on occasion, but kick myself after pulling the trigger. I just shoot steel 3" 3's or 4's.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:06 pm

mudpack wrote:
lostknife4 wrote: The maximum range of a TSS pellet is much further than any Steel pellet.


Hmmmmmm....are you sure about that?

How about comparing a #9 TSS pellet to an F steel pellet.....which would maintain lethal energy the longest distance?
Anyone know??


Image

I used 1 oz for a payload and both loads velocity at target of 500 fps but as is clearly seen the per pellet ED and Gel penetration are close however there are 7 times as many pellets with the TSS which does wonderful things for pattern density and total energy at target with an approximate 7 yards target range the better for T Steel. Even a 2 oz T Steel would be hard pressed to keep up to the sheer volume of TSS pellets in a pattern but then the law of diminishing returns cuts in and you would need a 4" hull 12 ga and a double thickness barrel to get 2 oz to 1500 fps along with a super duper choke tube...............The TSS would use a IM for overall best choke for ranges 30 to 55, maybe a full for 75 yards and in a FGM 2-3/4 hull.
Interesting question. According to JJ Mac using the Lowery Ballistics program the max range for a TSS 9 is 322 yards....
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:47 pm

duckslayer74 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote:Big bad Internet tough guy you, I give up, your so much better than me. (Insert middle finger here).

Who are you talking to?


Yuchi. Seems he wants to get down and dirty and take personal shots. I have told him to take it to PMs if he wanted to keep going but he doesn't comprehend. I've got no issues with you mud.


color=#0000BF]This ^^^, is not what you stated originally as in fact, you said the 20 gauge will kill birds as far as the 12 gauge, which can/will exceed 50 yards in lethal range. However, I now understand why you prefer the 20 gauge with being so wimpy that carrying a few more ounces of gun/cartridges is such a burden. Hopefully, they'll drop someday and you'll be able to handle a grown man's weapon.' Also, your passive/aggressive style (now, sucking up to Muddy) isn't anything novel either.[/color]

His attempt to feel manly.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:35 pm

Wow this is still going :huh:

So what have we learned after 12 pages?

Bore to Bore (apple to apple) a 12 will hold a more effective killing pattern through distance then a 20.
Pellet to Pellet (apple to apple), a 410 to 10 will kill to the maximum effective range of said pellet.
Said pellet will kill to distance based on its density/size/speed.
A 20 in the hands of a good shooter is more effective than a 12 in the hands of a poor shooter.
TSS is the most effective pellet we as hunters can get our hands on.
3200 and I love our Citori's.
Lost should open a importing business for TSS
Mud and Slayer have more in common then they realized and are now starting a bromance on the Web.
Jehler is still Jehler and is the master of stirring the pot :wink:
Yatchi and Slayer will never agree on anything.
Glimmerjim is objective and see's both sides of what is being argued.

What I am I missing????

Oh yes I am jealous of Lost living in the middle of nowhere.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:39 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:Wow this is still going :huh:

So what have we learned after 12 pages?

Bore to Bore (apple to apple) a 12 will hold a more effective killing pattern through distance then a 20.
Pellet to Pellet (apple to apple), a 410 to 10 will kill to the maximum effective range of said pellet.
Said pellet will kill to distance based on its density/size/speed.
A 20 in the hands of a good shooter is more effective than a 12 in the hands of a poor shooter.
TSS is the most effective pellet we as hunters can get our hands on.
3200 and I love our Citori's.
Lost should open a importing business for TSS
Mud and Slayer have more in common then they realized and are now starting a bromance on the Web.
Jehler is still Jehler and is the master of stirring the pot :wink:
Yatchi and Slayer will never agree on anything.
Glimmerjim is objective and see's both sides of what is being argued.

What I am I missing????

Oh yes I am jealous of Lost living in the middle of nowhere.


Your caught up.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:41 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:08 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:Wow this is still going :huh:

So what have we learned after 12 pages?

Bore to Bore (apple to apple) a 12 will hold a more effective killing pattern through distance then a 20.
Pellet to Pellet (apple to apple), a 410 to 10 will kill to the maximum effective range of said pellet.
Said pellet will kill to distance based on its density/size/speed.
A 20 in the hands of a good shooter is more effective than a 12 in the hands of a poor shooter.
TSS is the most effective pellet we as hunters can get our hands on.
3200 and I love our Citori's.
Lost should open a importing business for TSS
Mud and Slayer have more in common then they realized and are now starting a bromance on the Web.
Jehler is still Jehler and is the master of stirring the pot :wink:
Yatchi and Slayer will never agree on anything.
Glimmerjim is objective and see's both sides of what is being argued.

What I am I missing????

Oh yes I am jealous of Lost living in the middle of nowhere.


Hammer,

Looks like you've "nailed" it down to a tee.

Pay no attention to our two resident internet punks as they've a case of sore hiney after being called out for BS on their outlandish claims. However, maybe Muddy can start a 12-step program for them to help ease the pain of a severly bruised ego for having let a 100 pound mouth overload a 10 pound hiney. :yes:

And, yes, I too am jealous of Lost's current address of record! :bow:
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Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:34 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:Wow this is still going :huh:

So what have we learned after 12 pages?

Bore to Bore (apple to apple) a 12 will hold a more effective killing pattern through distance then a 20.
Pellet to Pellet (apple to apple), a 410 to 10 will kill to the maximum effective range of said pellet.
Said pellet will kill to distance based on its density/size/speed.
A 20 in the hands of a good shooter is more effective than a 12 in the hands of a poor shooter.
TSS is the most effective pellet we as hunters can get our hands on.
3200 and I love our Citori's.
Lost should open a importing business for TSS
Mud and Slayer have more in common then they realized and are now starting a bromance on the Web.
Jehler is still Jehler and is the master of stirring the pot :wink:
Yatchi and Slayer will never agree on anything.
Glimmerjim is objective and see's both sides of what is being argued.

What I am I missing????

Oh yes I am jealous of Lost living in the middle of nowhere.

:lol3: :lol3:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:10 am

["quote="hamernhonkers"]So what have we learned after 12 pages?

Bore to Bore, a 12 will hold a more effective killing pattern through a longer distance than a 20.
A pellet will penetrate to the maximum effective range of said pellet, regardless of the gun gauge.
Said pellet will penetrate to distance based on its density/size/speed.
A 20 in the hands of a good shooter is less effective than a 12 in the hands of a good shooter.
TSS is the most expensive pellet we as hunters can get our hands on.
3200 and I are now starting a bromance on the Web.
Lost should open a importing business for rubber sandals.
Mud and Slayer have more in common then they realized and are now starting a bridal salon in Fargo, ND.
Jehler is still Jehler and is the master of vigorously defending theories even he doesn't really believe.
Yatchi and Slayer are man man and wife (you decide which is which).
Glimmerjim is really your mother, and tries to agree with everyone.
Hammer wants to live with Lost.[/quote]

Fixed it for ya'. :thumbsup:

So, apg, did you ever find that 20ga?
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:24 am

20 gauges are the spawn of Satan!
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby 3200 man » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:32 am

Yuchi 1

I'm sure you have heard , it's not the Bow or Arrow but , the man behind it , Right ?

Well , having many options with different gauges can be an advantage . If you haven't tried it , you should !

Also , being a better shot allows one to shoot any gun to it full potential !

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:39 am

the only reason i spoke up on this thread at all is because every season i see guys at gander with their kids before duck season looking at shotguns, most have this attitude that they have to get the kid a 12 and the poor little shitkickers stand there trying to swing a mossberg 500 or 870 "youth addition" that still has to much pull. You can bet your ass they are going to develop a flinch when dad buys them the 1450 or better 1 1/4 ounce shotshells. lot of guys lurk here for input and if I can get through to a few of them that a light 20 fitted to their kid with some lighter loads will still kill birds more efficiently than a gun that's to big i get a warm fuzzy inside.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:09 am

jehler wrote:the only reason i spoke up on this thread at all is because every season i see guys at gander with their kids before duck season looking at shotguns, most have this attitude that they have to get the kid a 12 and the poor little shitkickers stand there trying to swing a mossberg 500 or 870 "youth addition" that still has to much pull. You can bet your ass they are going to develop a flinch when dad buys them the 1450 or better 1 1/4 ounce shotshells. lot of guys lurk here for input and if I can get through to a few of them that a light 20 fitted to their kid with some lighter loads will still kill birds more efficiently than a gun that's to big i get a warm fuzzy inside.


Especially if they use 7/8 oz # 9 TSS at 1250 fps they will probably outshoot their fathers with their 3-1/2" super mags with anything including T shot !!!!
LOL
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:12 am

lostknife4 wrote:
jehler wrote:the only reason i spoke up on this thread at all is because every season i see guys at gander with their kids before duck season looking at shotguns, most have this attitude that they have to get the kid a 12 and the poor little shitkickers stand there trying to swing a mossberg 500 or 870 "youth addition" that still has to much pull. You can bet your ass they are going to develop a flinch when dad buys them the 1450 or better 1 1/4 ounce shotshells. lot of guys lurk here for input and if I can get through to a few of them that a light 20 fitted to their kid with some lighter loads will still kill birds more efficiently than a gun that's to big i get a warm fuzzy inside.


Especially if they use 7/8 oz # 9 TSS at 1250 fps they will probably outshoot their fathers with their 3-1/2" super mags with anything including T shot !!!!
LOL
Lost


jr outshoots me with 3/4 ounces of steel 4's some days :oops:
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