20 gauge

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:57 pm

I love how people think bigger is better so your saying if your shooting a 10ga with 2 1/4 oz of lead your going to kill a duck better lets say 30 yard than a 20 gauge I dont think so dead is dead don't matter how it got dead. In your way of thinking I guess it's more dead than just plain old dead so in your way of thinking I guess your right and I'am wrong
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Fowl'in up NORTH » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:09 pm

And a 1 oz load of 3's going 1400fps in the 20ga has way less penetration than 1 1/2oz of 1's going 1400fps out of the 12ga. These loads have the same pellet count. To statistically kill waterfowl you must have sufficient pattern density and penetration. This is a balancing act and the person that preaches this most is Frank. The #1's are going to penetrate gel much further while still being able to hold a sufficient pattern at longer ranges which will allow for a long range load. To whoever said his avg birds went up. It was not soley because of the 20ga ballistic superiority which it doesn't have. The increase was probably you being able to get ducks into you effective range better than years past. Sorry, but a 12ga will be able to produce lethal patterns at long range than a 20ga will. Same goes for the 10ga vs the 12ga.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Fowl'in up NORTH » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:15 pm

cootlover wrote:I love how people think bigger is better so your saying if your shooting a 10ga with 2 1/4 oz of lead your going to kill a duck better lets say 30 yard than a 20 gauge I dont think so dead is dead don't matter how it got dead. In your way of thinking I guess it's more dead than just plain old dead so in your way of thinking I guess your right and I'am wrong



No I am say that a 10ga with 2 1/4oz of BB lead going 1200fps will be able to hold a pattern and penetrate at longer ranges than a 20ga with a 1 1/4oz #4 lead going 1200fps.

I'm not saying that 20ga can't kill ducks. Hell I shot 3 ducks this year with 9/16oz of #6's steel going 1550 out of a .410. They were all around 20-25yrd shots and were stone dead when I picked them up. I am trying to help you guys see that usually it's the indian, but at extreme ranges it can be the arrow.

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:19 pm

Fowl'in up NORTH wrote:And a 1 oz load of 3's going 1400fps in the 20ga has way less penetration than 1 1/2oz of 1's going 1400fps out of the 12ga. These loads have the same pellet count. To statistically kill waterfowl you must have sufficient pattern density and penetration. This is a balancing act and the person that preaches this most is Frank. The #1's are going to penetrate gel much further while still being able to hold a sufficient pattern at longer ranges which will allow for a long range load. To whoever said his avg birds went up. It was not soley because of the 20ga ballistic superiority which it doesn't have. The increase was probably you being able to get ducks into you effective range better than years past. Sorry, but a 12ga will be able to produce lethal patterns at long range than a 20ga will. Same goes for the 10ga vs the 12ga.


We are'nt doing pellet count, thats apples to oranges. 3 shot pellets weigh less than 1 shot pellets that's why the 1 shot penetrates farther, more mass. Frank is not the master either, find another Yoda that actually hunts instead of crunching numbers. And I never once said my number of ducks went up because of the "ballistic superiority" of the 20ga. I was showing that it can keep up with the 12s in the right hands. As far as range goes I hunt the same spots year after year and take the same shots as I do with my 12ga.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby War Wagon » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:30 am

If you are looking for a nice 20ga gun take a look at CZ-720. I sell guns and a guy wanted me to order one for him. I thought for the price it would be a POS, well when it came in I completly tore it apart, I was very impressed with it. Good quality of work and it's not a POS that I thought. So next time you get in a gun store take a look at this little CZ Shotgun.


http://www.cz-usa.com/products/by-category/shotguns/
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:34 am

It's easy to make your 20 ga out pattern and out energy the 12 ga 3-1/2", just shoot TSS #8 or #9 from a 2-3/4" hull at 1400 fps or less.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby VincentCorrea » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Fowl'in up NORTH wrote:
cootlover wrote:I love how people think bigger is better so your saying if your shooting a 10ga with 2 1/4 oz of lead your going to kill a duck better lets say 30 yard than a 20 gauge I dont think so dead is dead don't matter how it got dead. In your way of thinking I guess it's more dead than just plain old dead so in your way of thinking I guess your right and I'am wrong



No I am say that a 10ga with 2 1/4oz of BB lead going 1200fps will be able to hold a pattern and penetrate at longer ranges than a 20ga with a 1 1/4oz #4 lead going 1200fps.

I'm not saying that 20ga can't kill ducks. Hell I shot 3 ducks this year with 9/16oz of #6's steel going 1550 out of a .410. They were all around 20-25yrd shots and were stone dead when I picked them up. I am trying to help you guys see that usually it's the indian, but at extreme ranges it can be the arrow.

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I like the 20 ga the best for ducks in most circumstances. My reason is the weight and balance of a 20 ga repeaters and some side by sides. I find them a lot faster getting to the target and quicker on the follow up shots due to less recoil. However when I hunt a particular lake up my way I won't use nothing but my 12 ga, the shots can get a little longer at times, that's the only reason though.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby dakotashooter2 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:04 pm

mudpack wrote:
duckslayer74 wrote: You guys are way over complicating things.


Here, let me simplify things a bit: you'll kill more ducks per season with a 12 gauge than you will with a 20 gauge, especially if you persist in taking 60 yard shots.

Buckingham said, "I shoot ducks with a heavy payload of big shot." He wasn't talking about a 20 gauge.



This may be true for long shots but not my experience for shots under 35-40 yards. When I switched to my 20 ga O/U after a couple seasons my kill ratio on ducks went up significantly, which suprised even me because one barrel shoots low and the gun does not fit me nearly as well as my 12 ga. Red Label. In the decoys I have not been able to tell the difference between it and my 12 ga, though I don't take 50-60 yard shots anyway......even with the 12. Also note that I am not the best of shots and tend to catch the birds in the fringe of my pattern. I suspect the difference would be even less noticable by a good shooter that could consistenly center the pattern. Note too that maybe 30% of my shots are jumpshooting, which tends to be the longer shots I take. Core density of your pattern matters too. I have shot 20 ga loads that had a better core density than many of the 12 ga loads I tested (40 yards). If I could center the birds in the core area ga had very little relevance.

It's as much mentality/confidence as anything. I don't think the average 12 ga shooter has much of an edge over a confident 20 ga shooter. You also have to dedicate yourself to the 20 to get results. The first year I shot the 20 I probably would have done slightly better with the 12. At that point most guys would have called it quits on the 20 qualifying that it was not as good. If you go to the 20 use it exclusively for at least 2 seasons before deciding which ga is best for you. Most people have already decided the 12 is better before they have even shot a 20, never giving it a chance.

The 12 DOES have the ability to handle a larger pellet which does give it some downrange gain. #1s are the largest you will find for the 20 but my experience is #2s will give a more consistent pattern from the 20.

On a side note when I was young and dumb and just starting hunting I killed 2 geese at 40 yards with #6 shot launched out of a 410. Probably a 40% kill ratio on geese I shot at that year.

As far as guys that look down their noses at the 20 I just tell them, "don't worry, someday you will be a good enough hunter to be able to kill stuff with the 20 ga".....................LOL
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby stealfeathers » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:03 pm

One of my buddies keeps up with me every duck hunt and he shoots a 20g. He uses a full choke. Granted hes a good shot and usually shoots em ib the bill. I take my wifes 20 sometimes to the wood duck hole and enjoy it. The low recoil is nice. I have a bad shoulder, i have been thinking about going to a 2 3/4 shell.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:51 am

You guys should really try TSS in your 20's. I use it in my 28 BPS. Lost
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:33 am

trowlan1 wrote: if all things are equal (fit of gun, speed of load, choke size, shot size, same shooter) that with more pellets, in the kill zone you have a better chance at the kill/break. Period.


And that is the bottom line of why a 12ga is more efficient on ducks than a 20 ga.: payload capabilities.

To those few who think a 20 ga gun is a good as a 12 ga gun in the clay target sports, all evidence points to the 12 being superior (and for good reason).

You have to shoot a higher average in skeet with a 12 than you do with a 20 to be considered AA class. Why? Because it's easier to break even 22yard skeet targets with a 12 than it is with a 20.

In trap, where targets are broken at ranges of 25-45yards, there are no classes; you can shoot any shotgun you want. What gauge gun do all the competition shooters shoot? Twelve gauge. All of them. Why? Because the twelve is a more efficient gun and will get them more birds. We can argue opinions all day long, but it's hard to argue against facts.

As Nash Buckingham said, "A good big gun beats a good little gun every time."
Same is true with shooters: any shooter, good or bad, will break more targets and/or kill more birds with a big gun/payload than he will with a small gun/payload, over the long haul. I can run a streak of 1 with any gage gun. If I want to kill/break the maximum number of birds in a run of 100 birds/targets, I won't shoot a 20....and neither will any other experienced shooter.

Understand, I love my 20's. When I shoot live pigeons I sometimes shoot anywhere from 300 to 500 shells a day. I prefer to use one of my 20's when I do this, for several reasons. But, I don't delude myself into thinking that I kill as many pigeons with the 20 at the end of the day than I would have if I'd shot a 12 gauge. Any bird I hit with the 20, I would have hit with a 12...the opposite cannot be said.
The fact that you have to very vigorously defend the 20 proves something. No one has to defend a 12.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby dakotashooter2 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:48 am

The biggest reason the 12 is better for the average shooter than the 20 is NOT because the 12 is ballistically better but because it covers "shooter error" better............. If you have a skeet shooter who can hit 25 of 25 consistently with a 20 the 12 really doesn't offer any advantage. I would suggest that if you can't drop birds consistently with a 20 then you are not getting center hits on the bird and need the extra fringe on the pattern that 12 ga offers or more practice. What the 12 often does is allows shooters to hit birds beyond the shooters capability.........

I can tell you from experience that my shooting gets sloppy when I use the 12 ga. The 20 forces me to sharpen up.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:07 am

Those same arguments could be used to favour the 10 over the 12.............
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:48 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Those same arguments could be used to favour the 10 over the 12.............
Lost



Careful Lost, that right there is a can of worms :eek: :lol3:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby dakotashooter2 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:06 pm

Some guys would use a 4 ga if it were legal and would get tham an extra bird or 2..............

I would happily shoot only 2 3/4" out of my 12 for waterfowl but 3" shells are only about $1 a box more and sometimes not even that and there is more variety on the shelf in 3" shells.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:28 pm

dakotashooter2 wrote:Some guys would use a 4 ga if it were legal



Yes I would :thumbsup:

I feel sorry for those who choose to, or have to limit their shot gunning experience to only one bore diameter.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:57 pm

learn to shoot :thumbsup:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:08 pm

cootlover wrote:I love how people think bigger is better so your saying if your shooting a 10ga with 2 1/4 oz of lead your going to kill a duck better lets say 30 yard than a 20 gauge


They don't "kill better". After all, as you said, dead is dead.
What a large payload will do is let you kill birds at a greater distance, and/or let you kill birds that might have been only crippled by a smaller payload.....or maybe even missed completely by a smaller payload.

All organized clay shooting limit the payload size of each gauge eligible to compete. They know that, because payload size pays such a significant role in broken targets, shooters will shoot the largest payload they can to get every advantage they can.
Payload size: the main reason a 12 gauge can be more effective than a 20 gauge. :thumbsup:

BTW, make your same comparison at 50 yards instead of 30 and see what the outcome is..... :biggrin:
After all, you can kill a duck with a Red Ryder at 2 feet, and surely you don't believe a BB gun is as effective as a 10 gauge. ?
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:26 pm

I shot 12 ga for 28 years before I went to a 20 ga I can kill duck's at fifty yards with both gun's I no people will call BS that's ok and if I dont kill the duck's but just knock's them down that's why we have mans best friend and a boat .And ps I have been shooting skeet for over 30 years I no the rules trust me you don't need a 12 ga to run 100 straight at skeet
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:29 pm

mudpack wrote:
cootlover wrote:I love how people think bigger is better so your saying if your shooting a 10ga with 2 1/4 oz of lead your going to kill a duck better lets say 30 yard than a 20 gauge


They don't "kill better". After all, as you said, dead is dead.
What a large payload will do is let you kill birds at a greater distance, and/or let you kill birds that might have been only crippled by a smaller payload.....or maybe even missed completely by a smaller payload.

No, no, no, no, no!!!!!!!! Like I said before "a size 2 steel pellet is the same out of 12 or 20ga" gauge has nothing to do with distance. It has to do with pattern retention.

All organized clay shooting limit the payload size of each gauge eligible to compete. They know that, because payload size pays such a significant role in broken targets, shooters will shoot the largest payload they can to get every advantage they can.
Payload size: the main reason a 12 gauge can be more effective than a 20 gauge
. :thumbsup:

That's because more pellets = more chances to break the bird. And a 20ga is just as effective as a 12ga, it comes down to the shooter behind the gun.


BTW, make your same comparison at 50 yards instead of 30 and see what the outcome is..... :biggrin:
After all, you can kill a duck with a Red Ryder at 2 feet, and surely you don't believe a BB gun is as effective as a 10 gauge. ?


I'll guarantee if you went on a duck shoot with me and cootlover you'd see we shoot 50yd shots and are successful doing so. We both however shoot tight chokes that let us shoot those distances. The ducks get hit just as hard as they do with our 12's.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:32 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Over the years of daily (in season) use, I've gravitated to Kent's 2 3/4" Upland Steel 5s.

This is one of jr's favorites in a home rolled, 3/4 oz at 1500ish
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Rick Hall » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:20 am

jehler wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:Over the years of daily (in season) use, I've gravitated to Kent's 2 3/4" Upland Steel 5s.

This is one of jr's favorites in a home rolled, 3/4 oz at 1500ish


I'll throw the "learn to shoot" boys a bone here by admitting the irony of that choice. One of my starving college student economies was shooting everything, including deer, with a little Savage/Fox double 20ga and another was feeding it with the help of a cheap plastic Lee Loading press. That was in the '70s, when lead was legal and cheap enough that splurging for a bag of high antimony 5s for waterfowling wasn't beyond my reach when it turned out big ducks and geese were too often just wobbled. But by the time I could afford a second shotgun, I'd convinced myself neither 20ga 3" magnum or the 2 3/4" "baby mag" said to produce shorter, more effective shot strings were enough for even big ducks and stepped up to a 12ga for waterfowling.

Now, all these years and Lord knows how many birds later, here I am shooting most of my ducks with tiny "upland" loads of 20ga steel 5s. (But I still know the difference between "plenty" and "as much".)
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby B-Boy » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:40 pm

apg36820 wrote:Also since I'm wanting to switch to 20. Do you have good experience with any certian shells?

I love using a 20-ga for ducks. I have been doing it for a couple of years. I use a Benelli M2 with a 26" barrel and Comfortec stock. For me and my gun, the 3" PMC 1oz #3 or #4 shells have performed well. The only other 1oz steel load out there that I can find is Estate which I will try during the upcoming season. I tried the Kent Fasteel, but it didn't pattern well in my gun. The Federal 7/8oz #4 patterned well, but I thought the pellet count was a little lite. I really like to have a 1 oz load.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby B-Boy » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:47 pm

cootlover wrote:I just love when people think a 12 gauge can shoot farther than a 20 ga like hammer said put time behind the trigger 1550fps is 1550 fps it dont matter what gun it's coming out of ...

That is true, 1550 fps is 1550 fps, but... the pattern becomes a little "thin" at longer ranges when you are shooting 7/8 oz from a 3" 20-ga (168 #4 pellets) vs 1 3/8 oz from a 3" 12-ga (264 #4 pellets). It's not that the 20-ga doesn't have the power to knock down a duck at 40 yards. It can. It's the fact that your pattern may be too sparse to cleanly kill that duck. When I'm hunting with my 20-ga, I use a tighter choke (LM vs IC) to increase the pattern density and keep my range to 35 yards. I know my gun patterns well at that range. If I was using one of my 12-ga guns, I don't think I would need to take shots any further than 35 yards for the conditions we hunt it. So, for me, the 20-gauge isn't limiting my range, and it's a lot of fun to shoot. :grooving:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:42 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPyI01D1Mcw here is a video of a mallard I shot at 40 yards with my m2 20ga 3in #2 fast steel out of my pattern master you can tell how hard it hit's
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