20 gauge

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:11 pm

I do the same thing with a 28 ga albeit using TSS #9 shot 3/4 oz.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:19 pm

Keeping things apples-to-apples, a larger bore will generate better killing patterns than smaller ones therefore, if the same shooter is behind the receiver, the larger bore will kill more birds in a given time frame.

The caveat is with the patterns so generated, as the 3" 20 gauge suffers from the same deficiencies as the 3 1/2" 12 gauge in that simply stuffing more payload into the hull is not a guarantee of superior patterns.

That's why the 10 gauge will always reign supreme in the long-range catagory as larger payload coupled with large bore equates to the best long-range patterns one can hope to attain.

With that being said, I love my 20's and have used them more and more the past few seasons. However, I do recognize they are no 12 gauge much less a 10 gauge in total lethality.

Back when I first started having to use steel cartridges (late 80's) the commercial shotshell offerings were so pizz poor that I (within the first season) went to a BPS10 and immediately observed the superiority over anything else available, at that point in time.

Of course, with only ~45 seasons of waterfowling experiences, I could be wrong.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby TheQuackThatKillz » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:22 pm

I currently shoot a 12 weatherby SA-08 and you cant go wrong and I'm sure a 20 gage weatherby SA-20 will have the same results. WHAT EVER YOU DO DON'T BUY A MOSSBURGH!!!
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:53 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:Keeping things apples-to-apples,

Of course, with only ~45 seasons of waterfowling experiences, I could be wrong.


But have you tried TSS #8 or #9 in your 20 ga? You may be very pleasantly surprised.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby mudpack » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:56 pm

lostknife4 wrote:I do the same thing with a 28 ga albeit using TSS #9 shot 3/4 oz.
Lost


And just think what you could do with 1 1/2oz of that same shot out of a 12. :eek:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:21 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:Keeping things apples-to-apples, a larger bore will generate better killing patterns than smaller ones therefore, if the same shooter is behind the receiver, the larger bore will kill more birds in a given time frame.

The caveat is with the patterns so generated, as the 3" 20 gauge suffers from the same deficiencies as the 3 1/2" 12 gauge in that simply stuffing more payload into the hull is not a guarantee of superior patterns.

That's why the 10 gauge will always reign supreme in the long-range catagory as larger payload coupled with large bore equates to the best long-range patterns one can hope to attain.

With that being said, I love my 20's and have used them more and more the past few seasons. However, I do recognize they are no 12 gauge much less a 10 gauge in total lethality.

Back when I first started having to use steel cartridges (late 80's) the commercial shotshell offerings were so pizz poor that I (within the first season) went to a BPS10 and immediately observed the superiority over anything else available, at that point in time.

Of course, with only ~45 seasons of waterfowling experiences, I could be wrong.

Nope, 10 is to heavy and slow swinging, a heavy load from a twelve is a hard recoil, a twenty in the right hands with the right load can be more effective than a larger bore. Broad assumptions, like bigger is always better, rarely work in life, same holds true with shotguns.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:33 pm

mudpack wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:I do the same thing with a 28 ga albeit using TSS #9 shot 3/4 oz.
Lost


And just think what you could do with 1 1/2oz of that same shot out of a 12. :eek:


Put it in a 10 and you'd hafta load rock salt under the pellets...to keep the meat from spoiling before you got to the bird!
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:37 pm

jehler wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:Keeping things apples-to-apples, a larger bore will generate better killing patterns than smaller ones therefore, if the same shooter is behind the receiver, the larger bore will kill more birds in a given time frame.

The caveat is with the patterns so generated, as the 3" 20 gauge suffers from the same deficiencies as the 3 1/2" 12 gauge in that simply stuffing more payload into the hull is not a guarantee of superior patterns.

That's why the 10 gauge will always reign supreme in the long-range catagory as larger payload coupled with large bore equates to the best long-range patterns one can hope to attain.

With that being said, I love my 20's and have used them more and more the past few seasons. However, I do recognize they are no 12 gauge much less a 10 gauge in total lethality.

Back when I first started having to use steel cartridges (late 80's) the commercial shotshell offerings were so pizz poor that I (within the first season) went to a BPS10 and immediately observed the superiority over anything else available, at that point in time.

Of course, with only ~45 seasons of waterfowling experiences, I could be wrong.

Nope, 10 is to heavy and slow swinging, a heavy load from a twelve is a hard recoil, a twenty in the right hands with the right load can be more effective than a larger bore. Broad assumptions, like bigger is always better, rarely work in life, same holds true with shotguns.


J, that's why I take one of the 20's so often these days however, no cigar for you, as over time, the shotgun with the larger/denser (at range) pattern will kill (overall) more birds as for the days when they are skittish and/or the wind is howling will make the bigun's come into their own.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:42 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
jehler wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:Keeping things apples-to-apples, a larger bore will generate better killing patterns than smaller ones therefore, if the same shooter is behind the receiver, the larger bore will kill more birds in a given time frame.

The caveat is with the patterns so generated, as the 3" 20 gauge suffers from the same deficiencies as the 3 1/2" 12 gauge in that simply stuffing more payload into the hull is not a guarantee of superior patterns.

That's why the 10 gauge will always reign supreme in the long-range catagory as larger payload coupled with large bore equates to the best long-range patterns one can hope to attain.

With that being said, I love my 20's and have used them more and more the past few seasons. However, I do recognize they are no 12 gauge much less a 10 gauge in total lethality.

Back when I first started having to use steel cartridges (late 80's) the commercial shotshell offerings were so pizz poor that I (within the first season) went to a BPS10 and immediately observed the superiority over anything else available, at that point in time.

Of course, with only ~45 seasons of waterfowling experiences, I could be wrong.

Nope, 10 is to heavy and slow swinging, a heavy load from a twelve is a hard recoil, a twenty in the right hands with the right load can be more effective than a larger bore. Broad assumptions, like bigger is always better, rarely work in life, same holds true with shotguns.


J, that's why I take one of the 20's so often these days however, no cigar for you, as over time, the shotgun with the larger/denser (at range) pattern will kill (overall) more birds as for the days when they are skittish and/or the wind is howling will make the bigun's come into their own.

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:57 pm

Then, they'll (unfortunately) end up with fewer birds bagged (in the apples-to-apples comparison) over a season, than the gunner toting the 10 gauge. I'm not a big guy (6'0" @220) but have not encountered any issues shooting one of the 10's.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:59 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:Keeping things apples-to-apples,

Of course, with only ~45 seasons of waterfowling experiences, I could be wrong.


But have you tried TSS #8 or #9 in your 20 ga? You may be very pleasantly surprised.
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I often shoot #4 & #6 HS or TI cartridges in them and can only imagine how impressive the TSS would be in that bore. :thumbsup:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:01 pm

I Dont care what I shot it with I jacked that green head up :thumbsup:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby cootlover » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:07 pm

Lost I would love to shoot TSS. one day ill buy some shot then we would be talking about 80 yard shots out of a 20 ga :biggrin:
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:27 pm

mudpack wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:I do the same thing with a 28 ga albeit using TSS #9 shot 3/4 oz.
Lost


And just think what you could do with 1 1/2oz of that same shot out of a 12. :eek:


What don't you get???????? :no: :no: That bird was hit just as hard as with a 12ga. A 12 would have a longer shotstring but that being said you'll have more pellets that don't touch the bird also.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:25 pm

Make sure the 3" 20 gauge shotstring isn't actually longer than that 2 3/4" 12 gauge 1 1/2 oz. of TSS.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:49 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:Make sure the 3" 20 gauge shotstring isn't actually longer than that 2 3/4" 12 gauge 1 1/2 oz. of TSS.


The great part about TSS is you don't need 1 1/2 oz of shot. 3/4 of an oz to 1 oz is plenty.

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:55 pm

Agreed, however, the point is that even at 1 1/2 oz. of TSS, the shotstring is likely far more efficient than 1 oz. of steel crammed into a 3" 20 gauge hull.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:25 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:Agreed, however, the point is that even at 1 1/2 oz. of TSS, the shotstring is likely far more efficient than 1 oz. of steel crammed into a 3" 20 gauge hull.


If we are talking TSS to steel (apples to oranges) yes you are most likely right.

Now if that was 1 1/2 oz of steel in that 12 also then it could go either way vs the 20 with 1 oz of steel.

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Re: 20 gauge

Postby jehler » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:10 am

Shot string length from one load/bore to the next is insignificant in relation to shot size, energy and pattern when it comes to killing efficiently. Not even sure why guys bring it up?
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby waterrat2 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:15 am

All that is very cool.

I have never shot TSS or fancy non-tox, just plain lead in the day, and now steel.

We tend to shoot our geese in close, and was finding it too easy with a 12. I picked up an old 3 inch 20 ga with chokes to play with.

We then spent a ton of time on the reloading bench and the pattern board to cook up a happy combination.

I can safely say that we have killed over 400 geese one year with a 4 guy team, and the 20 ga made up for at least 1/2 of my share. There was only one day that I wished for a 12, and that cause the crazy winds had the birds flaring out 40 plus meters.

My favorite 12 gauge load is 2 3/4 in, 1 oz of 1's or B. with the 20 ga, I can still use the 1 oz, and play with the velocity a bit.

We run a Youth Mentored Hunt with Delta every year, and all the kids shoot 20 ga, Kent 3" #2's. I have seen a ton of geese drop to the 20 gauge.

To make a long story short, don't under sell the 20, if you spend the time on the shells, chokes and the pattern board, you'll be amazed.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:38 am

jehler wrote:Shot string length from one load/bore to the next is insignificant in relation to shot size, energy and pattern when it comes to killing efficiently. Not even sure why guys bring it up?


Shot string length was problematic with many of the old lead loads but has been shown to be less significant with steel except for the longer shot columns (3" 20 ga., 3 1/2" 12 ga., etc.) where a long(er) shot string was noted in an article (NRA, American Hunter) ~4 years ago, when high-speed photographs were taken from muzzle to 40 yards. The taller the payload, the longer the shot string was apparently the observation with the basic relevance being on crossing targets, at range. My recollection of one of the purposes for the test was to ascertain the effect of long(er) shot strings on crippling ratios.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby dakotashooter2 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:20 am

The fact is if you send a 12 ga shooter out with a 20 ga and he shoots 99 birds instead of his normal 100 he is going to deem the 20 ga as grossly inadequate. Many hunters will not be satisfied until they can "reach out and touch " any bird in their visual range, hence we have seen the move to 3' and now 3 1/2" 12 ga loads throughout the years. The reason many market shooters used 10 ga and larger wasn't because they were any more powerfull but because they knocked down more birds at once with their large patterns, across all ranges.

The 20 ga does have some limitations.....but they are not nearly as limiting as most would have you believe. When I hunt geese I am just as likely to grab either gun between my 12 and 20...... when I hunt ducks I always grab the 20 because I have learned that I shoot far more effectively with it....... Again , a lot of it comes down to confidence.............

While some guys are out there getting pounded by their 21 ga guns and spending $20-$30 on shells to get their limit of bird. I'm sitting back enjoying the mild recoil, spending maybe $5-$7 on shells and only coming up 1 shy of a limit........... I can live with that...............
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby Rick Hall » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:28 am

dakotashooter2 wrote:The fact is if you send a 12 ga shooter out with a 20 ga and he shoots 99 birds instead of his normal 100 he is going to deem the 20 ga as grossly inadequate.


Not necessarily so. I shoot them both pretty much daily in season and deem the 20 close enough for ducks and more fun to shoot. But I ain't kidding myself about it being the 12's ballistic equal.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby 1448jonboat » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:32 am

"The reason many market shooters used 10 ga and larger wasn't because they were any more powerfull but because they knocked down more birds at once with their large patterns, across all ranges."

It's not accurate to include the 10 gauge when discussing punt guns. During the late 1800's and early 1900's market-hunting era, the 10 gauge was a 2 7/8" load not renown for multiple bird knockdowns. Even today with the 3 1/2 loads, the 10 gauge isn't relied upon as such by 10 gauge shooters.
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Re: 20 gauge

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:42 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
jehler wrote:Shot string length from one load/bore to the next is insignificant in relation to shot size, energy and pattern when it comes to killing efficiently. Not even sure why guys bring it up?


Shot string length was problematic with many of the old lead loads but has been shown to be less significant with steel except for the longer shot columns (3" 20 ga., 3 1/2" 12 ga., etc.) where a long(er) shot string was noted in an article (NRA, American Hunter) ~4 years ago, when high-speed photographs were taken from muzzle to 40 yards. The taller the payload, the longer the shot string was apparently the observation with the basic relevance being on crossing targets, at range. My recollection of one of the purposes for the test was to ascertain the effect of long(er) shot strings on crippling ratios.


Was there any indication of wad spinning leaving the muzzle?
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