Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Duck

Share your questions on all makes and models of shotguns. Please post chokes questions in the SRBC forum

Moderators: Quack Wacker NC, MM

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Sat May 11, 2013 6:58 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote: Cost of a gun has nothing to do with performance.


You haven't learned a whole lot in 84 years, have you Ned.

Performance is determined by quality.
Cost of a gun is the primary indicator of quality.
You cannot separate cost and performance, in guns, in cars, in aircraft, in pencil sharpeners.


Another personal attack without proof of what you are saying. My inexpensive 20 gage Crescent Davis SxS Cost $1.50 in 1939 and never had a malfunction and still works. I paid $75 for my 870 and never had a malfunction and still works. Same for all my guns. It's called personal care of my guns. Also I drove a Model A for 4 yrs in high school and college. It would go 60 mph wide open and I paid $50 for it. Again personal care kept it going. You could pull 3 of the spark plug wires and it would still run on one cylinder. Your posts are still subjective BS without any proof. How about all the POI problems with the Berretas, etc. You haven't owned and shot an Excell or Condor shotgun but yet you are an expert on them. Jon



Jon,

I own three Berettas an A400 Xcel sporting, a Silver Pigeon V and an Xtrema 2. Not one of them has a POI problem. Might you be perpetuating a myth without any real basis. This seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You ask Mudpack what his experience is with the Stoeger, what is your experience with the Berettas to pass such derogatory information. And by the way, the fact that you might know someone who owns a Beretta is not personal experience.
jpari
hunter
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Bridgewater, NJ


Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Paulinkansas » Sat May 11, 2013 7:40 pm

Here's my 2 cents on the Stoeger Condor.

Bought a Supreme (12 ga, 28", ejectors, single selective trigger). It worked great, no problems whatsoever. It was stolen from me.

Insurance bought me another one. I paid a bit extra to have the Supreme with the 12/20 combo. Long story short, the supreme combo is just the regular condor with 2 sets of bbls. No ejector, no selective trigger. Had to raise a stink with Able Ammo to return the gun. Their customer service is great. Stoeger probably reworded their website on the Supreme Combo because of me.

Got a 2nd Condor Supreme. Couldn't hit anything with it half the time. Patterned it at 40 yds. Couldn't put more than 10% of the pellets from the bottom barrell onto the 36" square paper. POI was way off POA. Sent it back.

Stoeger sent me a replacement. It worked great for about 250 rounds, then the safety selector would not work. It was stuck firing the top bbl first. Couldn't fire the bottom first if my life depended on it.

Sent it back. They fixed it and sent it back to me.

Went to a regional DU meeting for the people that put on the banquets. There was a 50 target sporting clays course at the meeting for the attendees to shoot. Cost about $10 for 50 birds. I entered twice but just shot through one round.

One of me shot the Stoeger. The other one of me shot a "B" gun. Same shells, same targets, same shooter rotation from station to station.

Me shooting the Stoeger hit the most clays of all the participants. There were about 50 people there. I hit 38 with the Stoeger, and got some sort of prize. Hit 34 with the B gun but didn't win anything. Someone else hit 36 and 35.

Would I recommend it for doves, yes. My dove guns look pretty in my eyes. For ducks, no. My ducks guns get scratched, wet, abused, muddy, fire 3 shots and reload a 4th quickly, and all have a sling. None of them look pretty to me. For field hunting ducks, maybe. It's like comparing a nice camaro or mustang to a Jeep 4x4 with a lift kit and mud tires.
Paulinkansas
hunter
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: Southeast Kansas

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby mudpack » Sun May 12, 2013 4:01 am

Jon Bergren wrote:Mudpack, tell us your experience owning a Condor.


Zero.
Zilch.
Nada.

We know about your experience owning a Beretta. Or a Browning. Or a Benelli.
Also zero.

The closest thing you've ever owned to a top quality shotgun is your old 870.
Close, but no cigar.
(I've owned two Wingmasters, and although they are fine pumpguns, they are hardly cutting-edge technology.)

One doesn't have to have owned a Yugo to know they were low cost/low quality/low performance automobiles, now do they.
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5709
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby cootlover » Sun May 12, 2013 7:35 am

:lol: That's funny I did own a condor for a little while I didn't like how cheap they feel. There not balanced very good yes it went boom when I pulled the trigger with most things you get what you pay for.
cootlover
hunter
 
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:39 pm

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby junior00 » Sun May 12, 2013 12:05 pm

I had a Condor Supreme in both 12 and 20 which I used for dove hunting and skeet shooting. Both were good, low cost "blue collar" guns for what I was using them for. The ONLY trouble I ever had was when I first bought the 12 I went to a sporting clays course and had trouble with it firing both barrels at the same time now and then. Took it home, broke it completely down and cleaned it up good and never had the issue again. I have a friend who is also a mod on here that shot a standard Condor FOREVER to goose hunt with and loves it! Are they a Browning? NO! Are they a complete turd? NO! As for your questions regarding ejectors/extractors, ME, personally, I like ejectors because they are more glove friendly. I'd also be lying if I said i didnt like pegging my buddies with the spent hulls now and then also, LOL! But seriously, though, get one, clean it good before using it the first time, take care of it, you will be happy, I think! Hope this helps!
junior00
hunter
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:58 pm
Location: Southern Illinois

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon May 13, 2013 5:39 pm

Well after all that has been said I will tell you this about them with 6 years of owning condors.

I had a combo set for four years with never a hiccup while hunting or shooting clays. I am not sure of the total shell count with it in 4 years of shooting it. I ended up giving it to my bro in law 2 years ago and he uses it and it splits time with his Vinchi for his hunting. 4 or 5 years ago I picked up a condor 20 and used it very heavily for 3 or so years. I think one season I used it almost exclusively for all waterfowl and upland hunting. The only issue I have had to date was the automatic safety. I fixed it myself the first week I had it. I know its had at least 10,000 rounds through it total between birds and clays.

At 300 and 500 these are disposable guns to me. I bought them to beat the sh*t out of them hunting ducks and I have not been let down by either.

If you are a serious shooter looking for a 100,000+ round gun these are not the best choice. If your a weekend warrior shooting 100 to 500 or a rounds a year or little more they should last you a very very long time.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9360 using Tapatalk
Hello

David wrote:
I have suspended the suspension on the suspended, allowing the suspended to post in a non-suspending manner.
User avatar
hamernhonkers
hunter
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:56 am

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Camocynergy » Wed May 15, 2013 8:21 pm

I think the Stoeger is ok for the money you shell out for it, but they are cheaply built IMO compared to a more expensive O/U. If you're going for cheap, I think the CZ's are a better gun for the money, they seem well built to me. A friend of mine was looking for a cheap O/U and the first thing he came across was the Stoeger, but I was passing through a cabelas, and looked around and handled multiple Stoegers and CZs, and in a side by side comparison the CZs seemed better. Most of them seem very short, though, to me, and some come in some weird configurations. You could save up a little bit more money and look for a used gun, but that may be a long tedius search depending on what price range you're looking at.
Camocynergy
hunter
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed May 15, 2013 11:00 pm

I bought my first Citori in August, 1975. It gave me some problems with the safety not disengaging the next month during dove season. Opening day (12/05/75) of duck season and ~130 miles from home, both trigger springs broke when I torched off the bottom barrel in folding a nice bull sprig. Got it back the following March from Browning and it performed well until I sold it in July of 1984.

Recently sold a 1949 vintage Superposed 20 gauge as we just didn't get along and I experienced safety malfunctions with her as well.

I currently have a 16 gauge Citori and it has been lights out since last summer, when I acquired her.

Also, have had & sold two (2) Cynergy (3 1/2") waterfowler models as they just didn't fit and feel (in the field) as they did in the store.

Have had two (2) Beretta 686's (3" & 3 1/2" Waterfowler model) and they performed flawlessly but sold both as they were cast/stocked for the wrong side(RH) when I "saw the light" and began shooting LH after ~45 seasons of urinating into the wind on the wrong (RH) side.

Had a Rizzini with choke tube wells that were cross threaded. Sent it back to the US service center (Pennsylvania) and they re-tapped the threads & furnished a new set of tubes. Sold her because of the RH stock as well.


Had a 12 gauge Yildiz and she was a well made gun (uses Briley chokes) but sold it to 10gaOkie as he has several and has used them for many seasons w/o problems.

Have two (2) Stoeger SXS models and (so far) haven't had any issues for the past three (3) years.

Based upon my personal experiences over the past ~38 seasons with O/U & SXS shotguns of the varieties listed above price is not necessarily indicative of quality.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby mudpack » Thu May 16, 2013 6:22 am

Yuchi1 wrote: price is not necessarily indicative of quality.


Oh, but it is.


Buy a new Condor and a new Citori this weekend. Alternate your shooting between them so they each experience equal shooting (number of shells, types of environments, etc.)
I will bet you $100 the Condor malfunctions before the Citori does...and malfunctions more often over the next 50 years...if the Condor is even alive in 50 years. How about over the next 100 years?

Want to take that bet?
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5709
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Paulinkansas » Thu May 16, 2013 6:27 am

mudpack wrote:Buy a new Condor and a new Citori this weekend. Alternate your shooting between them



You could buy 3 or 4 Condors for the price of a Citori. If one Condor breaks, you can continue shooting guns number 2, 3 and 4 while number 1 is getting fixed. If the Citori breaks, you're out of luck. :lol3:
Paulinkansas
hunter
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: Southeast Kansas

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby OHIODUCKA5 » Thu May 16, 2013 7:03 am

Ruger Red lable.
I hope someday someone remembers this old dog with kindness and gives me to a puppy.

-Gene Hill
User avatar
OHIODUCKA5
hunter
 
Posts: 12493
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:46 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Yuchi1 » Thu May 16, 2013 8:22 am

Paulinkansas wrote:
mudpack wrote:Buy a new Condor and a new Citori this weekend. Alternate your shooting between them



You could buy 3 or 4 Condors for the price of a Citori. If one Condor breaks, you can continue shooting guns number 2, 3 and 4 while number 1 is getting fixed. If the Citori breaks, you're out of luck. :lol3:


Based upon my actual experience (Citori vs. Stoeger) as outlined above, Muddy has already lost his bet.

Please make your check out to Delta Waterfowl. :thumbsup:
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu May 16, 2013 9:05 am

jpari wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote: Cost of a gun has nothing to do with performance.


You haven't learned a whole lot in 84 years, have you Ned.

Performance is determined by quality.
Cost of a gun is the primary indicator of quality.
You cannot separate cost and performance, in guns, in cars, in aircraft, in pencil sharpeners.


Another personal attack without proof of what you are saying. My inexpensive 20 gage Crescent Davis SxS Cost $1.50 in 1939 and never had a malfunction and still works. I paid $75 for my 870 and never had a malfunction and still works. Same for all my guns. It's called personal care of my guns. Also I drove a Model A for 4 yrs in high school and college. It would go 60 mph wide open and I paid $50 for it. Again personal care kept it going. You could pull 3 of the spark plug wires and it would still run on one cylinder. Your posts are still subjective BS without any proof. How about all the POI problems with the Berretas, etc. You haven't owned and shot an Excell or Condor shotgun but yet you are an expert on them. Jon



Jon,

I own three Berettas an A400 Xcel sporting, a Silver Pigeon V and an Xtrema 2. Not one of them has a POI problem. Might you be perpetuating a myth without any real basis. This seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You ask Mudpack what his experience is with the Stoeger, what is your experience with the Berettas to pass such derogatory information. And by the way, the fact that you might know someone who owns a Beretta is not personal experience.


You must do selective reading, not reading my posts May 9 and 11. About 10 yrs ago there were many posts about Berretas shooting way too the left. My hunting Buddy had one that shot too the left about 2 ft. Beretta said it was within their specs. He took it to a machinist friend who bent it until it was on POA not 2 ft to the left. It has stayed there. Also another hunting friend shot a new Benelli one morning. The first shot at geese three bolt parts ended up on the ground. The info is not derogatory but fact. Also when Benellis came out for steel shot they had skinny barrels and wouldn't pattern steel worth a hoot over 1550 fps. They have since fixed this problem. All gun manufacturers use statisicall Quality Control meaning that 5% of the guns are made to have problems except the handworked ones which are very expensive. The Belgian Browning A5's were hand inspected and shot before going to the public. I have my Fathers A5 ser 5004 made in Belgium. It still functions. Jon who has patterned over 3000 steel reloads.
Jon Bergren
hunter
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby mudpack » Thu May 16, 2013 4:34 pm

Paulinkansas wrote:You could buy 3 or 4 Condors for the price of a Citori. If one Condor breaks, you can continue shooting guns number 2, 3 and 4 while number 1 is getting fixed. If the Citori breaks, you're out of luck. :lol3:

What happens when Condors #1, #2, #3, and #4 are "being fixed"?

That's right....you go and buy a Browning/Beretta. :biggrin:




"If the Citori breaks"?? My point is: the Citori won't break. (statistically speaking)


Cheap guns are just cheap guns. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. They may be all you need, but many of us require more from our firearms.
My first two shotguns were cheap guns; a Springfield and a JC Higgins. Both new, both gave me very poor service. While they never actually stopped working, they operated badly and were headaches. I swore I'd never buy a crapgun again. Watching people who shoot cheap shotguns has convinced me, over the years, that I was correct. Some of us learn our life lessons early. Others not so soon.
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5709
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Yuchi1 » Thu May 16, 2013 9:54 pm

mudpack wrote:
Paulinkansas wrote:You could buy 3 or 4 Condors for the price of a Citori. If one Condor breaks, you can continue shooting guns number 2, 3 and 4 while number 1 is getting fixed. If the Citori breaks, you're out of luck. :lol3:

What happens when Condors #1, #2, #3, and #4 are "being fixed"?

That's right....you go and buy a Browning/Beretta. :biggrin:




"If the Citori breaks"?? My point is: the Citori won't break. (statistically speaking)

Mine did. Remember, as Disraeli stated, "there are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies & statistics". :yes:


Cheap guns are just cheap guns. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. They may be all you need, but many of us require more from our firearms.
My first two shotguns were cheap guns; a Springfield and a JC Higgins. Both new, both gave me very poor service. While they never actually stopped working, they operated badly and were headaches. I swore I'd never buy a crapgun again. Watching people who shoot cheap shotguns has convinced me, over the years, that I was correct. Some of us learn our life lessons early. Others not so soon.


Got that check in the mail to DW yet?
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby duckslayer74 » Thu May 16, 2013 10:26 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Paulinkansas wrote:You could buy 3 or 4 Condors for the price of a Citori. If one Condor breaks, you can continue shooting guns number 2, 3 and 4 while number 1 is getting fixed. If the Citori breaks, you're out of luck. :lol3:

What happens when Condors #1, #2, #3, and #4 are "being fixed"?

That's right....you go and buy a Browning/Beretta. :biggrin:




"If the Citori breaks"?? My point is: the Citori won't break. (statistically speaking)

Mine did. Remember, as Disraeli stated, "there are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies & statistics". :yes:


Your gun was from 75, I think the quality is a bit better than then.

Cheap guns are just cheap guns. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. They may be all you need, but many of us require more from our firearms.
My first two shotguns were cheap guns; a Springfield and a JC Higgins. Both new, both gave me very poor service. While they never actually stopped working, they operated badly and were headaches. I swore I'd never buy a crapgun again. Watching people who shoot cheap shotguns has convinced me, over the years, that I was correct. Some of us learn our life lessons early. Others not so soon.


Got that check in the mail to DW yet?
Winchester SX2 12ga, SX3 20ga, Kicks Highflyer and Terror chokes.
User avatar
duckslayer74
hunter
 
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:25 pm
Location: Harrisville, UT

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri May 17, 2013 7:08 am

duckslayer74 wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Paulinkansas wrote:You could buy 3 or 4 Condors for the price of a Citori. If one Condor breaks, you can continue shooting guns number 2, 3 and 4 while number 1 is getting fixed. If the Citori breaks, you're out of luck. :lol3:

What happens when Condors #1, #2, #3, and #4 are "being fixed"?

That's right....you go and buy a Browning/Beretta. :biggrin:




"If the Citori breaks"?? My point is: the Citori won't break. (statistically speaking)

Mine did. Remember, as Disraeli stated, "there are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies & statistics". :yes:


Your gun was from 75, I think the quality is a bit better than then.


QC is better now? LOL! Since the B80 was taken out of production, Browning has been plagued with QC issues of epic proportion. Of course, I only have/had ~sixteen (16) of 'em over the past 38 seasons however, the recall guns I remember were the mid-nineties BGH & my 1998 vintage BPS and the BGH's were the most problematic (new production) S/A's I have ever had the misfortune of encountering.

Cheap guns are just cheap guns. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. They may be all you need, but many of us require more from our firearms.
My first two shotguns were cheap guns; a Springfield and a JC Higgins. Both new, both gave me very poor service. While they never actually stopped working, they operated badly and were headaches. I swore I'd never buy a crapgun again. Watching people who shoot cheap shotguns has convinced me, over the years, that I was correct. Some of us learn our life lessons early. Others not so soon.


Got that check in the mail to DW yet?
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Fri May 17, 2013 8:57 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
jpari wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote: Cost of a gun has nothing to do with performance.


You haven't learned a whole lot in 84 years, have you Ned.

Performance is determined by quality.
Cost of a gun is the primary indicator of quality.
You cannot separate cost and performance, in guns, in cars, in aircraft, in pencil sharpeners.


Another personal attack without proof of what you are saying. My inexpensive 20 gage Crescent Davis SxS Cost $1.50 in 1939 and never had a malfunction and still works. I paid $75 for my 870 and never had a malfunction and still works. Same for all my guns. It's called personal care of my guns. Also I drove a Model A for 4 yrs in high school and college. It would go 60 mph wide open and I paid $50 for it. Again personal care kept it going. You could pull 3 of the spark plug wires and it would still run on one cylinder. Your posts are still subjective BS without any proof. How about all the POI problems with the Berretas, etc. You haven't owned and shot an Excell or Condor shotgun but yet you are an expert on them. Jon



Jon,

I own three Berettas an A400 Xcel sporting, a Silver Pigeon V and an Xtrema 2. Not one of them has a POI problem. Might you be perpetuating a myth without any real basis. This seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You ask Mudpack what his experience is with the Stoeger, what is your experience with the Berettas to pass such derogatory information. And by the way, the fact that you might know someone who owns a Beretta is not personal experience.


You must do selective reading, not reading my posts May 9 and 11. About 10 yrs ago there were many posts about Berretas shooting way too the left. My hunting Buddy had one that shot too the left about 2 ft. Beretta said it was within their specs. He took it to a machinist friend who bent it until it was on POA not 2 ft to the left. It has stayed there. Also another hunting friend shot a new Benelli one morning. The first shot at geese three bolt parts ended up on the ground. The info is not derogatory but fact. Also when Benellis came out for steel shot they had skinny barrels and wouldn't pattern steel worth a hoot over 1550 fps. They have since fixed this problem. All gun manufacturers use statisicall Quality Control meaning that 5% of the guns are made to have problems except the handworked ones which are very expensive. The Belgian Browning A5's were hand inspected and shot before going to the public. I have my Fathers A5 ser 5004 made in Belgium. It still functions. Jon who has patterned over 3000 steel reloads.


Jon,

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and reread your posts of May 9, and 11. You mention Benelli predominantly, which I am not referring to in my response. You do mention Berettas having issues 10 years ago. Questionable facts since you have only had experience with one Beretta which you did not personally own. If this is all true, then why have I not experienced any of these mysterious Beretta problems with my three Berettas? Have I gotten the only three Berettas that function flawlessly in the world? In fact they function so well that I will never sell any one of them. My two hunting/target shooting buddies also shoot Berettas and guess what, no POI problems nor quality issues at all. Jon can you explain this phenomena, the three of us have eight Berettas between us and not one has any issues. I would like you to explain this magic to me.
jpari
hunter
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Bridgewater, NJ

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Fri May 17, 2013 9:17 am

As to the topic of cheap double guns being equal to expensive double guns, I am actually having a difficult time understanding what the argument is in this thread. I really cannot believe that there are people here saying, I believe, that the cheap double guns are just as good, or just as reliable as the higher end double guns. Think of it this way. A double gun that retails for say $550.00 probably is built by it's maker for approx. $100.00. They then sell this gun to a dealer who puts their markup onto it and sells it for the $550.00 that you ultimately pay. How much quality do you really believe that a maker can put into a gun that they bring in for $100.00. Quality of steel, quality of parts, regulation of barrels, fit and finish simply have to be of lesser to substandard quality in order to bring the product in for their price point. Though, some of these makers do put nice wood on these very low quality doubles and many of the buying public sees this wood and says to themselves "boy, that's a nice gun". I am really not trying to be a snob about this issue, just a realist. In order to get true quality from a maker's product, it is going to cost more to buy because the maker must put more money into producing it and must make a profit.
jpari
hunter
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Bridgewater, NJ

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri May 17, 2013 10:32 am

The quality of any gun is dependent on the user. It has nothing to do with the gun. Probably one of the best guns for the money was the 870 and still is. I believe they are close to 15 million sold. They are not cheap but inexpensive. I paid $75 for my Wingmaster in 1970 ordering it from Selma Aalabama. The old timer who I got to hunt with starting when I was 11 never cleaned his auto shotgun. It was a Rem 11. During the season it would jam occasionally. His method of "fixin" it was to pour outboard motor gas containing oil on and in it, wiping it off with his gun case, a burlap bag and then shooting it 3 times as fast as he could pull the trigger. This would happen at least twice during the season. All the other autos used by the hunting club members generally functioned all the time. I remember my Dad's Belgian A5 not firing only once because of a broken firing pin. He then used my Mothers gun. When he got home he made a new firing pin and installed it. It was hardened and then drawn back. He was a mechanic and blacksmith. Generally the owner has control over the funcation of any gun. I maintain my own guns replacing parts when needed generally before they fail. Shotguns are made to run clean, not dirty. Jon.
Jon Bergren
hunter
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Fri May 17, 2013 11:37 am

"The quality of any gun is dependent on the user. It has nothing to do with the gun."

Jon,

So, If I am understanding you correctly, If I take care of a Remington 870 clean it regularly and replace parts before they wear out then the build quality of said Remington is of the same build quality as a Holland & Holland or it's ilk? And my statement would ring true If the above quote by you is in fact true. However, I think that your logic may be flawed. The quality of any gun is and always will be determined by the care, quality of materials and detail that it's maker puts into it's creation. This care translates into higher dollars paid out by the maker to produce it, thus, higher dollars paid out by the consumer to purchase it. It has nothing to do with the user, or how well or poorly the user takes care of said gun. Please explain your point more, I am confused.
jpari
hunter
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Bridgewater, NJ

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri May 17, 2013 2:32 pm

jpari wrote:"The quality of any gun is dependent on the user. It has nothing to do with the gun."

Jon,

So, If I am understanding you correctly, If I take care of a Remington 870 clean it regularly and replace parts before they wear out then the build quality of said Remington is of the same build quality as a Holland & Holland or it's ilk? And my statement would ring true If the above quote by you is in fact true. However, I think that your logic may be flawed. The quality of any gun is and always will be determined by the care, quality of materials and detail that it's maker puts into it's creation. This care translates into higher dollars paid out by the maker to produce it, thus, higher dollars paid out by the consumer to purchase it. It has nothing to do with the user, or how well or poorly the user takes care of said gun. Please explain your point more, I am confused.


You must be another one that does selective reading. I have posted this several times. The very expensive guns were handfitted and cycled until they were what the craftsman thought was perfect. The early Brownings in Belgian were made the same way. Probably why my Fathers still works and is ser 5004. Most guns including the Italians are built using Statistical Quality control and it's a fact that 5% will malfunction. The gun manufacturers use the same basic tooling and have to get the high end accuracy they have to resort to hand working. Also cost depends on the location. The cost of producing in Brazil where my Condor was built is much, much lower than in Italy and Turkey. My Son taught Music at the University of Iowa and had many Brazil students and learned to talk Portugese which the Brazillians speak. One students father was a dentist and got paid in chickens, not money, from the poorer people. It's stupid to insinuate that taking care of a gun does not minimize failure. If you didn't take care of your Porche it would fail the same way a Ford would without care. I designed and procured Machine Tools to machine explosives which were accurate to .0001" repeatability. This required a lot of hand scraping and fitting.Tell me about machining guns. I worked with the British in the Nuke business in Precision Engineering for the last 15 yrs of my employment. Jon, who's logic is not flawed.
Jon Bergren
hunter
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby mudpack » Sat May 18, 2013 6:42 am

Jon Bergren wrote:The quality of any gun is dependent on the user. It has nothing to do with the gun. Jon.


The quality of a gun is dependant on the person who buys it, not on the gun itself??

:huh:


At best, you could be half right...if you'd substituted "reliability" for "quality". Even that has a great deal to do with the gun itself.

I'm sure you've done lots of interesting things in your lifetime. Have you gained wisdom in the process?
mudpack
hunter
 
Posts: 5709
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am
Location: Central Kansas

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Sat May 18, 2013 8:35 am

So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.
jpari
hunter
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Bridgewater, NJ

Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Jon Bergren » Sat May 18, 2013 10:44 am

jpari wrote:So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.

You must not understand modern day statistical control which allows 5% of the guns to be faulty. IF you were Beretta and getting barrels shooting to the left, wouldn't you fix the problem. They did. Where were you when this happened? Why does my Pastor Son's Citori keep malfunctioning, It is one of your so called expensive guns. Our 870's wingmasters don't miss a beat. None of my guns malfunction do to personal care. Jon
Jon Bergren
hunter
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:07 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Shotgun Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carl1783 and 18 guests