Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Duck

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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby MarkM » Sat May 18, 2013 11:57 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
jpari wrote:So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.

You must not understand modern day statistical control which allows 5% of the guns to be faulty. IF you were Beretta and getting barrels shooting to the left, wouldn't you fix the problem. They did. Where were you when this happened? Why does my Pastor Son's Citori keep malfunctioning, It is one of your so called expensive guns. Our 870's wingmasters don't miss a beat. None of my guns malfunction do to personal care. Jon




Well it seems to me you get the only 5% of lower end guns that never has a problem. It's strange that everyone you know that buys high quality guns has malfunctions, but for me it's the opposite. The people I shoot with that buy lower end guns seem to have problems, whereas those of us who spend money on high quality guns, seem to not have problems. It happens to a serious hunters guns, not someone who hunts on the weekends and a few days of the week a year. I know a guy who doesn't clean his gun and he hunts every day without a problem. He bought a high end double. I know another guy who has a low end double that's hunted it daily and had problems. It's a crapshoot with the lower quality guns on what kind you get. It seems to me youust have extremely good luck if every lower end gun you buy doesn't have a problem.

I would like to know how you can tell when to replace a part before it fails. Do you have a special gift you haven't told us yet? I would like to know so I can ask you what's going to go out on my guns so I can go ahead and order the parts, so I don't have to be a gun down during season.

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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Jon Bergren » Sat May 18, 2013 12:37 pm

MarkM wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
jpari wrote:So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.

You must not understand modern day statistical control which allows 5% of the guns to be faulty. IF you were Beretta and getting barrels shooting to the left, wouldn't you fix the problem. They did. Where were you when this happened? Why does my Pastor Son's Citori keep malfunctioning, It is one of your so called expensive guns. Our 870's wingmasters don't miss a beat. None of my guns malfunction do to personal care. Jon




Well it seems to me you get the only 5% of lower end guns that never has a problem. It's strange that everyone you know that buys high quality guns has malfunctions, but for me it's the opposite. The people I shoot with that buy lower end guns seem to have problems, whereas those of us who spend money on high quality guns, seem to not have problems. It happens to a serious hunters guns, not someone who hunts on the weekends and a few days of the week a year. I know a guy who doesn't clean his gun and he hunts every day without a problem. He bought a high end double. I know another guy who has a low end double that's hunted it daily and had problems. It's a crapshoot with the lower quality guns on what kind you get. It seems to me youust have extremely good luck if every lower end gun you buy doesn't have a problem.

I would like to know how you can tell when to replace a part before it fails. Do you have a special gift you haven't told us yet? I would like to know so I can ask you what's going to go out on my guns so I can go ahead and order the parts, so I don't have to be a gun down during season.

Mark

All guns have problems if not properly cared for. I am a registed Mechanical Engr and taught Tool and Die apprenticeship school learning as much from them as they did from me. Later on in life I designed and procured very accurate machine tools. I understand the movement (motion) of these machine tools. I know what will wear on all my guns. On my 1100's, the O ring, yoke, acton spring follower, action spring and buffer. If you post the gun(s) you have the guys on this forum can tell you what parts wear. I only know the guns I have. My Condor probably will never have to have a part replaced due to the quantity of shells I shoot through it and they are mostly 2 3/4". I had to tighten the forearm on my Condor when it started to get loose which was very simple job. I have a friend that had a gunshop at one time and when needed he can help me. He owned twenty one 1100 trap gones at one time. He sold them all. Jon.
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Sat May 18, 2013 1:32 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
jpari wrote:So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.

You must not understand modern day statistical control which allows 5% of the guns to be faulty. IF you were Beretta and getting barrels shooting to the left, wouldn't you fix the problem. They did. Where were you when this happened? Why does my Pastor Son's Citori keep malfunctioning, It is one of your so called expensive guns. Our 870's wingmasters don't miss a beat. None of my guns malfunction do to personal care. Jon


So then, if what you say is true then 5% of your beloved 870 Wingmasters must be faulty. In fact and I quote directly from Wikipedia "Production 870s for over 30 years had a design whereby a user could fail to press a shell all the way into the magazine when loading such that the shell latch did not engage the shell, and such actions could tie up the gun.[7] This was caused by the shell which slipped out of the magazine under the bolt in the receiver to bind the action, requiring rough treatment of the action or even disassembly to clear by the uninitiated. The potential issue was resolved with the introduction of the "Flexi Tab" carrier. Guns with this modification can be identified by the "U"-shaped cut-out on the carrier, visible from below the gun. The cut-out allows the carrier to flex when the shell presses on it without binding the action." So, the 870 Wingmaster was produced for greater than 30 years with a design flaw that needed to be corrected. However, I really do not wish to engage you in discussion of the 870. Back to the point. Given these 5% across the entire market then an inexpensive gun is still of less quality than a gun selling for much more that had more care lavished upon its creation.
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Jon Bergren » Sat May 18, 2013 2:06 pm

jpari wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
jpari wrote:So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.

You must not understand modern day statistical control which allows 5% of the guns to be faulty. IF you were Beretta and getting barrels shooting to the left, wouldn't you fix the problem. They did. Where were you when this happened? Why does my Pastor Son's Citori keep malfunctioning, It is one of your so called expensive guns. Our 870's wingmasters don't miss a beat. None of my guns malfunction do to personal care. Jon


So then, if what you say is true then 5% of your beloved 870 Wingmasters must be faulty. In fact and I quote directly from Wikipedia "Production 870s for over 30 years had a design whereby a user could fail to press a shell all the way into the magazine when loading such that the shell latch did not engage the shell, and such actions could tie up the gun.[7] This was caused by the shell which slipped out of the magazine under the bolt in the receiver to bind the action, requiring rough treatment of the action or even disassembly to clear by the uninitiated. The potential issue was resolved with the introduction of the "Flexi Tab" carrier. Guns with this modification can be identified by the "U"-shaped cut-out on the carrier, visible from below the gun. The cut-out allows the carrier to flex when the shell presses on it without binding the action."(quote)

Never had that problem with my Wingmaster or my Pastor Son,s. I woulld have had the problem I would have fixed it So, the 870 Wingmaster was produced for greater than 30 years with a design flaw that needed to be corrected. However, I really do not wish to engage you in discussion of the 870.(quoate). Then why did you bring it up????

Back to the point. Given these 5% across the entire market then an inexpensive gun is still of less quality than a gun selling for much more that had more care lavished upon its creation.


Show me the data that says more care is lavished upon it's creation. This is rediculous. I'm out of here.
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby jpari » Sat May 18, 2013 2:54 pm

Show me the data that says more care is lavished upon it's creation. This is rediculous. I'm out of here.

Sorry for your frustration Jon however, I do not think that you or any other member of this site really needs data to prove that a Purdey or Holland or any of their ilk has had more care lavished upon their creation than the 870 wingmaster. Have a great life Jon and thanks for the entertainment. :biggrin:
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby mudpack » Sat May 18, 2013 6:20 pm

Seems to me that Jon/Ned is using the 870 Wingmaster as an example of an ultra-reliable "cheap" gun.

Poor choice of examples.
The Wingmaster is not a cheap pump shotgun. In fact it is one of the more expensive current pump shotguns.
Maybe that's why it's so reliable.

If you want to use a cheap pumpgun as an example of reliability, try using a Mossberg 500, or one of the Turkish/Russian pumps, or a Maverick....or even an 870 Express. You know, a cheap gun.
Something tells me that those cheap guns will not be nearly as reliable as the top-of-the-heap Wingmaster. Why? Quality. The quality of a Wingmaster that costs more...naturally....than the cheaper pumps.

You, yourself, keep providing the best proof that you are incorrect in this thread, ned.
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat May 18, 2013 8:54 pm

jpari wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
jpari wrote:So Jon, I guess that you are the only responder to this thread that does not selectively read. My original response to you asked why my and my compadres Berettas, these total 8 to remind you, do not suffer from the mysterious Beretta issues that you mentioned. To this point you have not supplied a direct answer to that query. All of your responses to to this point remind me of when I read the answers of High School Sophmores on tests when they really do not know the answer to the question asked. They try to spin all around the point with allot of verbiage and hope that I will not notice that they really did not answer the question. Please try to direct your answers specifically to my Beretta question. I really do not care where or what you worked as or how detailed that work is or was. Please answer my Beretta question. At this point if you cannot understand that more expensive guns are built better than cheaper ones I cannot further engage in useless frustrating dialogue that spins in circles with you to continue to make this point. But please answer my Beretta question.

You must not understand modern day statistical control which allows 5% of the guns to be faulty. IF you were Beretta and getting barrels shooting to the left, wouldn't you fix the problem. They did. Where were you when this happened? Why does my Pastor Son's Citori keep malfunctioning, It is one of your so called expensive guns. Our 870's wingmasters don't miss a beat. None of my guns malfunction do to personal care. Jon


So then, if what you say is true then 5% of your beloved 870 Wingmasters must be faulty. In fact and I quote directly from Wikipedia "Production 870s for over 30 years had a design whereby a user could fail to press a shell all the way into the magazine when loading such that the shell latch did not engage the shell, and such actions could tie up the gun.[7] This was caused by the shell which slipped out of the magazine under the bolt in the receiver to bind the action, requiring rough treatment of the action or even disassembly to clear by the uninitiated. The potential issue was resolved with the introduction of the "Flexi Tab" carrier. Guns with this modification can be identified by the "U"-shaped cut-out on the carrier, visible from below the gun. The cut-out allows the carrier to flex when the shell presses on it without binding the action." So, the 870 Wingmaster was produced for greater than 30 years with a design flaw that needed to be corrected. However, I really do not wish to engage you in discussion of the 870. Back to the point. Given these 5% across the entire market then an inexpensive gun is still of less quality than a gun selling for much more that had more care lavished upon its creation.


A couple of comments:

First, Wikipedia is not necessarily a reliable source as publication w/o fact checking has long been it's hallmark.

Second I have several 870's with production date(s) from 1964-1979 and have never experienced the magazine feed problems alleged in the above post.

IMO, any failures to load properly are likely caused by a bent/sprung magazine latch spring rather than operator error.
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby DuckManClyde » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:22 pm

Fowlweather_13 wrote:
DuckManClyde wrote:I actually bought two this year, the standard condor 12g and 28 inch barrel, shoots great, and feels great in the hands. I recently bought there newer model. The Stoeger condor Longfowler, *Differences, 30 inch barrel, matte finish walnut, Black water/rustproof coating on barrel and reciever. Also a 12g.... i know alot of ppl havent had good experiances with stoegers, but i have purchased two Gems for the price. Id reccomend it to anyone looking for a budgetd O/U. But BUY IT NEW, NEVER OPENED. Then register it with stoeger to validate your warranty. *Just in case

- bought the condor for trap

- Longfowler for trap and duck/goose



I have been looking at the Longfowler and it has looked appealing to me I am wanting to Duck Hunt with the one i purchase do yo think the 30 inch barrels make a difference and does it have ejectors.


( just incase you didnt get my PM ) yes 30 inches is boss to have out on the water, especially when you have extended chokes. I dont think the longfowler comes in the supreme models, so no it doesnt have ejectors. A good alternative is the supreme condor. That has everything you want, just not the waterfowler touch.
If offended, and or irritated with the above post, please refer to my caring face :hi:
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Re: Stoger Condor/ Looking for advice on O/U for Dove and Du

Postby johntmeyer » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:51 am

Bought the basic condor for $400 went through all last season with it NO problems at all my friends have problems with there sem auto 3 shot, and now switching to overand under
Pros: Cheap, Reliable( dropped in water picked up and shot while hunting), Has ejectors(dont have them but runs fine), EASY AS HELL to clean, Easy to clean on spot if need (in blind)
Cons: Kicks hard and loud
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